How many new jackets do you have coming (and how many potential ones)?

[hondurasdave47]

Definitely. Same here. I am hoping for a Chinese 5Star with Western tanneries level leather. Fingers crossed. So far it doesn't seem like a scam. Still waiting for tracking number from this seller.

I think a lot of us have been waiting for somebody to take the plunge!

 

[Carlos840]

Just picked up this vintage model e for a great deal.
First Vanson from the 80s, i look forward to seeing what it is like.

 

[Superfluous]

And you should!

The only leather experts are the people working at the tannery. Leather jacket makers are tailors & designers and they certainly ain't tanning experts. They'd be waaay better off just saying "This is our brown leather and this is our black leather. They're all pretty cool!" 'cause frankly, at this point, that's all I wanna know.

Believe me, the only thing that makes sense is to forget 90% of "terminology" you hear getting thrown around out and just focus on color, texture and thickness (though even that part is filled with bs).
What @Jin431 says, it's just marketing techno-babble. Process of tanning is very complicated & by the time any information on how a batch of leather that some specific maker sourced has been tanned, gets transformed into a blurb on some retail platform, it went through so many levels of misunderstanding that it's best to simply ignore it.

I mean, retail websites can't even tell the difference between leather that's been split into layers & leather that a machinist flips upside-down before starting working on a jacket. Most of the internet believes Shinki is a type of leather!

What's happening is that you're hearing all of these terms from people who've never set foot into a tannery. For instance, read the descriptions on Himel's "about our leathers" page - You'll notice that all "descriptions" consist of the exact same terms that have been slightly rearranged. They can't even get the suede bit right!

But that is okay!
Because leather jacket makers themselves aren't even sure what they're buying and will for the most part just source leather that's got all the characteristics their product is known for; ie. what they're used to working with and ultimately, what the consumer expects from them.

It often happens to the tannery that they run out of a certain type of leather, which then forces makers to look for the closest match. I mean, that won't happen to Fine Creek or Real McCoy but it happens. It happened to Schott and Vanson. But what I'm getting at, not even the machinists will notice something's changed, let alone people who talk about tanning on social platforms.

People who have been in the industry for decades will happily tell you they don't care how the leather has been tanned as long as it checks all the boxes they require and I do believe that's actually a very healthy approach to all of this.

Respectfully disagree. Dave Himel has been studying leather tanning in depth for many years. He has visited multiple different tanneries in Japan, Europe, and the US -- sometimes multiple times -- and interacted extensively and intimately with the tanners. The notion that he is uninformed about the leather he sells and/or no more knowledgeable than the average jacket enthusiast is nonsensical. Dave may not be as knowledgeable as the actual tanners, but he knows exponentially more than most enthusiasts. I have spoken with Dave about this precise issue. His has an impressive command of the intricacies of leather tanning.

 

[navetsea]

Just picked up this vintage model e for a great deal.
First Vanson from the 80s, i look forward to seeing what it is like.

80's the era of excess, even the zipper has an extra puller on a puller

 

[Carlos840]

80's the era of excess, even the zipper has an extra puller on a puller

Yep, these had me worried for a second, but i am pretty sure they are just a removable extra that was added by the owner.
They are coming off as soon as i get the jacket...

https://www.ubuy.vn/en/product/1BMZ...dle-mend-fixer-for-suitcases-luggage-jacket-b

I am pretty sure the side laces have been replaced with paracord and are tied off with skull beads too, these are going to have to go too.

 

[navetsea]

what is aniline exactly, I always thought it is dyed so drum dyed or dip dyed, or paint brush/ sponge dyed

Then where is the boundary between dye and pigment? is water based leather paint pigment or dye?, or would oil based considered dye since it might get mixed with the oil in the leather, what about alcohol leather paint? we might say if semi translucent then it is a dye and when fully opague it is a pigment, but if we dilute any paint thin enough then it would be semi translucent and get absorbed into the pores...

brain shock... cannot compute....

or is it varnish perhaps acrylic varnish top coat make it called pigmented also making it waterpoof, the colorant doesn't matter maybe as long as varnish is not applied it would be called naked and thus aniline dyed... I dunno...

 

[Carlos840]

what is aniline exactly, I always thought it is dyed so drum dyed or dip dyed, or paint brush/ sponge dyed

Then where is the boundary between dye and pigment? is water based leather paint pigment or dye?, or would oil based considered dye since it might get mixed with the oil in the leather, what about alcohol leather paint? we might say if semi translucent then it is a dye and when fully opague it is a pigment, but if we dilute any paint thin enough then it would be semi translucent and get absorbed into the pores...

brain shock... cannot compute....

The main difference is solubility, dyes are soluble, pigments are not.

The term Aniline just defines a chemical composition, aniline dye is a chemical compound that dyes the leather/material itself. That is the important thing to remember, the material itself changes colour. And the dye itself is translucent. Aniline dye leaves no residue.

Pigment is basically paint, it is a pigment (a coloured powder) that is in suspension within a liquid (not disolved).
Once the liquid evaporates it leaves a coat of pigment behind, just like when you repaint your bike or your house.

The main difference is that the pigment leaves a coloured residue behind, the dye doesn't, it has coloured the material itself.
All you have to do to fully get it is buy a pot af anyline dye and try it on a leather, wood, fabric, it reacts very differently from paint.

 

[navetsea]

is fiebing a pigment or dye then I wonder, isn't just like ink. but when dry on, it leaves a layer of sheen on the second application or if not diluted. on the bottle it says dye, but then it s not very special at all. when people talk about hand dyeing leather it sounds very special.

I fiebing'ed my leather diluted a bit with water, using a bun from old cotton undershirt... this can not be aniline hand dyeing it was so simple.

 

[Carlos840]

is fiebing a pigment or dye then I wonder, isn't just like ink. but when dry on, it leaves a layer of sheen on the second application or if not diluted.

I'm not sure, i'm not a chemist and there has to be a bunch of things going on that can be explained by chemistry...

This is pretty interrestign:

https://www.imaging.org/site/PDFS/Papers/1996/RP-0-66/2178.pdf

"Dyes exist in a monomolecular state. In contrast,
pigments exist as particles, typically ranging in size from
0.1 to 1.0 micron. Each pigment particle contains a large
number of molecules. Figure 2 shows that each 0.1 mi-
cron particle of beta-copper phthalocyanine contains
~1.5 million molecules.2 Of these, -10% occupy surface
sites."

The smallest dye partical can be a single molecule, whereas the smallest pigment particle has 1.5 million molecules!

 

[navetsea]

probably dye is something that takes time to get reaction like hair dye or fabric dye, or even tea or coffee dye, while anything that leaves color once the water or alcohol or whatever solution evaporate is pigment? but somewhat labelled dye?

 

[Carlos840]

probably dye is something that takes time to get reaction like hair dye or fabric dye, or even tea or coffee dye, while anything that leaves color once the water or alcohol or whatever solution evaporate is pigment? but somewhat labelled dye?

Dyes and pigments are chemically different whatever you do with them.
Dyes are water soluble, pigments are not.

 

[jonbuilder]

Wikipedia says aniline leather is simply dyed leather and since all leather is dyed (even "natural" or "tan" as leather without any dye is gray/green (yeah, kinda what you'd expect something dead to look like)). So basically, all leather is aniline.

I am not sure all leather is dyed. The off-white Trojan Night Rider I purchased this year has a top coat of paint. Due to poor storage in humid China, the paint was flaking off. Under the paint, the leather is a grayish-green color. It seemed that thin layers of hide spilt off with the paint coat.
I do not see where a dye was used?

 

[jonbuilder]

Respectfully disagree. Dave Himel has been studying leather tanning in depth for many years. He has visited multiple different tanneries in Japan, Europe, and the US -- sometimes multiple times -- and interacted extensively and intimately with the tanners. The notion that he is uninformed about the leather he sells and/or no more knowledgeable than the average jacket enthusiast is nonsensical. Dave may not be as knowledgeable as the actual tanners, but he knows exponentially more than most enthusiasts. I have spoken with Dave about this precise issue. His has an impressive command of the intricacies of leather tanning.

Dave Himel is in a league by himself

 

[Rich22]

From left to right:
Full aniline pigment dyed (dyed all the way through + top coat; pigment dyed (top coat only); full aniline (dyed all the way through, no top coat)

View attachment 361577

Is that information from a tannery? The one on the left looks like oil pull leather, or at least waxed and oiled, as opposed to having a layer of lacquer/plastic applied. It isn't uniform enough.

 

[Rich22]

I am not sure all leather is dyed. The off-white Trojan Night Rider I purchased this year has a top coat of paint. Due to poor storage in humid China, the paint was flaking off. Under the paint, the leather is a grayish-green color. It seemed that thin layers of hide spilt off with the paint coat.
I do not see where a dye was used?

View attachment 361819 View attachment 361820

Aaarg! The horrors of painted/coated leather when it flakes off!

 

[Rich22]

Respectfully disagree. Dave Himel has been studying leather tanning in depth for many years. He has visited multiple different tanneries in Japan, Europe, and the US -- sometimes multiple times -- and interacted extensively and intimately with the tanners. The notion that he is uninformed about the leather he sells and/or no more knowledgeable than the average jacket enthusiast is nonsensical. Dave may not be as knowledgeable as the actual tanners, but he knows exponentially more than most enthusiasts. I have spoken with Dave about this precise issue. His has an impressive command of the intricacies of leather tanning.

Let's blame whoever wrote that page on his website then! He needs to fix that. It's a catastrophe of nonsense.

 

[Marc mndt]

Is that information from a tannery? The one on the left looks like oil pull leather, or at least waxed and oiled, as opposed to having a layer of lacquer/plastic applied. It isn't uniform enough.

The one on the left is Field Leather's 'pony shinki'. Doesn't feel waxy or oily at all. Instead it has a lacquer layer like you call it. It indeed isn't totally uniform, I think the topcoat is semi transparent.

 

[Rich22]

Dyes and pigments are chemically different whatever you do with them.
Dyes are water soluble, pigments are not.

This is how the definition is used correctly, with ink, for example. How it became co-opted to mean 'coated with plastic' when it comes to leather, I have no idea.

 

[Marc mndt]

That's interesting- thanks for the reply. It would be fascinating to know what they coated it with.

This is what the hide looks like:

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/field-leathers.100211/page-48#post-2816335

 

[Rich22]

The one on the left is Field Leather's 'pony shinki'. Doesn't feel waxy or oily at all. Instead it has a lacquer layer like you call it. It indeed isn't totally uniform, I think the topcoat is semi transparent.

That's interesting- thanks for the reply. It would be fascinating to know what they coated it with.

The main difference is solubility, dyes are soluble, pigments are not.

The term Aniline just defines a chemical composition, aniline dye is a chemical compound that dyes the leather/material itself. That is the important thing to remember, the material itself changes colour. And the dye itself is translucent. Aniline dye leaves no residue.

Pigment is basically paint, it is a pigment (a coloured powder) that is in suspension within a liquid (not disolved).
Once the liquid evaporates it leaves a coat of pigment behind, just like when you repaint your bike or your house.

The main difference is that the pigment leaves a coloured residue behind, the dye doesn't, it has coloured the material itself.
All you have to do to fully get it is buy a pot af anyline dye and try it on a leather, wood, fabric, it reacts very differently from paint.

I own some pigment inks for artistic purposes- unlike traditional dye based inks they are entirely water resistant. Once they are absorbed by paper they are not going anywhere unless you use a knife to scratch away the paper they've been absorbed by. The only dye based ink I have that is water resistant is cellulose reactive. If the 'pigments' applied to leather were like the pigment inks I'm familiar with, I can see no harm or drawback in staining leather with them. If anything, it seems a sensible thing for a tannery to try.