How do you DATE a vintage suit 30s/40s/50s?

[Martina]

Hello, I have been reading these posts for some time and have finally signed up for my own chance to chat with all of you! I'm so excited!!
I LOVE vintage clothing, especially men's suits. The problem I am having is this: I want to find a way to be sure of the age of a suit -ie. Dating a vintage suit!

I know about the lapels but what about the lining. Did the partial lining of the jackets start after the war, in an effort to conserve fabric?

And what about labels? Are there certain things that I should be looking for or excluding if it's a vintage suit?

I have easily half a dozen full suits and even more jackets/blazers without pants. A couple of them are solid (a black 3 piece suit and a blue 2 piece), one has a windowpane pattern and two have pin stripes. One that I especially love has 8 front buttons (it's double breasted), and is a blue wool with double line white pinstripes and red pinstripes in between. I'm sure it's quite old. I have a few blazers that are a real thick wool too... are the older ones made of thicker wool? I just uploaded photos of the suits to the web, so I could put some links in here if needed... but I haven't taken pictures of everything yet.

Lastly, is there some book that I could get that would show me various suits and fashions from the 20s through the 50s?? I have a ton of old store catalogues but they don't have as much information as I would like.

So, it's a pleasure to meet you all and I hope to chat more soon!
Thanks for any help you can offer me
Martina

 

[Grimstar]

I know there are others here who can help you far more than I can. Their vast stores of information are amazing. However, I can tell you that yes, suits were made of heavier wools back then...average was about 16 ounce, compared to 10 -12 ounce today. I am pretty sure that skeletal lining pre-dates the war, as I have seen references to half lined and unlined suits from the 1890's. As far as fashions, this link may help...they have some good information on the 20's and 30's http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/costhistpage.htm

Welcome to the lounge!

 

[herringbonekid]

Martina, this is a bit too broad a question to answer succinctly in one reply, as it would require an essay.

my advice is to have a good look around the old posts here first where you might find several of your queries already answered.

also, go vintage hunting in stores. the best way to get a feel for dating old clothes is to see and handle them. better yet, get a job in a vintage store. that's what i did.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

For US suits, one of the best ways to date the suit is via union labels.

I'm getting together a handbook for dating vintage american suits. Watch this space.

Eurozone is a little harder. I've found that german tailors were quite good at dating their creations, but the brits were a little shy in dating them. Again there are tips.

bk

 

[Marc Chevalier]

In the best of cases, old suits have address labels in the inside of the jackets' inner breast pocket. Sometimes, the maker or the owner has typed or handwritten the date that the suit was made or bought.

 

[Martina]

Vintage Suit Photos -need dates

Thanks for all the replies! I guess I should have been more specific.

I know a fair amount about old suits but mostly based on number of buttons, lapel style, union label, pant belt loop style, zippers type, etc... What I don't know is how to distinguish late 30s from mid 40s and mid 40s from late 40s and early 50s etc. During what years did suit jackets have 3/4 linings, instead of being fully lined and WHY did was this done? Also, when did leather buttons start? the 60s?
What about nylon zippers? When did they start? When was the switch over from button flies to zipper flies? That's the sort of thing I'm trying to learn.

I went looking tonight in Barnes & Nobles bookstore, for a book on men's fashions through the years. First they sent me into Antiques and Collectibles, which of course had nothing. Then they sent me to the 'Fashion' section, which was mainly how to make and draw clothing. But I did find book on 1950s Sears fashions (nice photos but very few were of men AND of course, no 40s clothing) and another book that simply had some line drawings. Those books were between $35-$45 and were just not that informative and not what I was looking for.

I came home home checked Amazon.com and found a book called "Men's Fashion: The Complete Sourcebook" by John Peacock and that looks wonderful but of course it's not in stock. So does anyone have any suggestions as to some books that might have the kind of information that I am looking for?

Now that I've finally gotten the pictures online, I'd like to ask if anyone could take a look at them; all or some... I'm trying to figure the dates on these suits, pants, and blazers. My guess is the 1940s but I have no idea as to whether they are early or late 40s. AND the blue striped 8-button one I am clueless about... I only know that it is old.

Navy windowpane plaid wool blazer w/ gold buttons
(has flap pockets; flaps tucked in, in photos)
by Lund's Ltd. Syracuse
Jacket:

http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08235.jpg

Navy blue wool blazer jacket, with gold buttons
by Man in Wool
Jacket:

http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc07247a.jpg

Lining:

http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc07257.jpg

Navy wool 8-button 2-piece suit; double white pinstripes, red single in between
-flap hip pockets + right side with faux flap waist pocket
no tags anywhere
Suit:

http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08158.jpg

Jacket:

http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08159.jpg

Pants:

http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08151.jpg

Black wool 3 piece suit (jacket has flap pockets; in photos, flap tucked in)
by Bond Clothes for Park Lane -Syracuse & Rochester
-the vest has a chest and a waist pocket, on EACH side
Suit:

http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08185.jpg

6-Button vest:

http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08179.jpg/[HTML]
Back of vest: [HTML]http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08181.jpg

Cuffed Pants:

http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08176.jpg

Button fly (6 buttons) woolen pants -cuffed
no tag
-these pants have a gusset in the back, which can be removed, obviously
Pants:

http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08206.jpg

Button fly:

http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08199.jpg

Navy woolen 2-piece suit
-flap hip pockets + right side with faux flap waist pocket, no back vent
-jacket has heavily padded shoulder, upper chest & back areas
-double pleat pants, dropped belt loops, cuffed, metal Talon zip, suspender buttons
Jacket:

http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08257.jpg

Pants:

http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08259.jpg

Auburn brown blazer jacket -Thick coarse woven-look wool
by E.W. Edwards & Sons -Syracuse & Rochester (old very high end store)
Jacket:

http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08262.jpg

Lapel & fabric close-up:

http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08264.jpg

Brown pin stripe suit (I'm thinking that this one may not be 1940s)
by Barrington -Wielboldt's
-has brown nylon Talon zipper + some moth holes
Jacket:

http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08267.jpg

Pants:

http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08270.jpg

That's it I hope I don't offend anyone with all these questions. I really did look around at the other posts, trying to find out all of this information. But the fact is that I live in Central New York -in the Snow Belt. Suits are worn here by very few men and fashion is definitely not something you can readily find someone to discuss with you! So you see, you're practically my only hope.. you here on the forum and the web....and a good fashion book!

Thanks tons for any information!!
Martina

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Are you kidding? We LOVE to answer questions like these! It justifies our presence on the Fedora Lounge.

Linings don't help all that much in distinguishing late '30s suits from mid-'40s suits. For one thing, some older men in the '40s continued to buy suits with '30s (or even '20s) construction details and fabric weaves. I've run into late '40s custom-made suits (or suits from midwestern haberdashers) that were dead ringers for mid-'30s models. These suits even had button flies. (Apparently, some oldtimers couldn't give themselves over to zippers.)

In general, the best bet in distinguishing late '40s suits from their mid-'30s ancestors is in the placement of the jacket buttons. For instance ... on '30s single-breasted suits, the top button is placed higher than it is on '40s suits. On most '30s double-breasted suits, the top two ("nipple") buttons are higher-placed than on '40s suits.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

The eight button strikes me as 60s. I may be wrong. Does it have boutonierre holes?

more to come ...

A couple of the others look like probably 50s (black 3pc and blue with drop loops). The rest 60s-70s.

Those trousers are great though. The button fly ones with the twin button waistband! Mid 30s. Almost undoubtedly. (The buttons) Marc will confirm or deny ...

bk

 

[Marc Chevalier]

This jacket's from the 1980s. The narrow lapels and "Woolmark" label in the lining give it away:

This jacket is from the late '60s or very early '70s. The upside-down peak on the wide lapel, as well as the chunky buttons, give it away. The pants are a '60s-'70s revival of a 1930s style; the '30s version wouldn't be quite so tight-fitting in the thighs, and the waist would be higher. Also, the zipper looks newer. Very old zippers were almost always made by "Talon", and they say so. Newer zippers usually have "YKK" (a Japanese zipper manufacturer) stamped on them.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

The jacket's long, narrowish lapels, combined with a high-buttoning stance and narrow pocket flaps -- as well as trousers with a high Hollywood-style waist, a long fly, and legs that are loose at the thigh and taper at the knee -- mark this as a mid-to-late 1950s suit.

The jacket below is from the late '60s. The fuzzy, sack-like material is typical of that era, and so is the lapel-and-pocket flap stitching (and lack of any buttonholes). Long center (or side) vents also give it away.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

The fact that this jacket has wide lapels COMBINED WITH wide pocket flaps indicates that it's from the 1970s.

Baron Kurtz is absolutely right: the trousers below are from the 1920s or '30s. The green (faded to olive tan) bakelite buttons on the fly give it away:

Now this jacket below is intriguing. Except for the lack of an "British drape" from the shoulders down to the sides of the chest, its cut is nearly identical to that of late 1930s double-breasted jackets. However, the gold buttons and the plaid pattern are not typically found in jackets of that time frame. My guess is that it's from the 1990s or even today, and that it was designed for a store like "Wilkes Bashford", "Louis, Boston" or "Paul Stuart".

.

 

[Martina]

More info on suits AND old plaid pants photo...

Marc & Baron, thank you so much for taking the time to look over these items for me! I'll try to answer your questions about them...

The blue 8-button striped one has no boutonierre holes BUT it does have an old metal Talon zipper; it also has a single back vent. The pants have a 31" waist (this suit was definitely made for a thinner man) and a 13" rise (center of crotch, with the top of the waistband front and back lined up) or 10" from the crotch seam to the top of the waistband. Also what's unfamiliar to me are the odd pocket openings in the front; angled slightly downward on the outer edges, with maybe a 1/4" vertical drop on the very outer edge.
http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc07093.jpg
Here's a close-up of the front of the jacket; I thought that I saw some 30s suits that had the odd looking lapels like these? Also, the buttons aren't chunky... but they're not quite super thin either.
http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08160.jpg

The solid blue suit (dropped belt loops) has a silver colored metal Conmar zipper (vertical logo), which I'm assuming definitely dates it to the 50s, right?

That navy blue blazer, with the fancy gold buttons (they have a shield with two crossed arrows inside and a crown sitting on top of it) has a 3/4 lining, with striped silk arm lining. Marc says that this is from the 1980s because of the label but by the 80s didn't suits have full linings instead of the 3/4s? I do see though that this has thinner lapels than on the heavy auburn brown jacket and the windopane navy jacket.

As for the windowpane plaid (navy with light blue and red plaid squares, & gold buttons), that one has on old Amalgated Union tag inside one of the inner chest pockets. The drap looks funny in the photos because the dress form has quite a large backside and it seems to pull everthing. It measures 21" across the chest, armpit to armpit. The waist is about 19 3/4" and at the hip pockets, it measures 21". Also, those gold buttons are flatter than a pancake!

The thick coarse woolen blazer (auburn orangey-brown color) has very thin goldtone buttons that have lines and them, with a black over coloring. That one measures 24" across the front at the armpits, edge to edge. It's 22.5" at the center buttons and 24" at the hip pockets.

Here's one more pair of pants that I would like you guys to take a look at, if you could. They are a heavier wool, no belt loops, silver metal Talon zipper, and the bottom of the pants measures 10" across or 20" around. Depending on how you measure the rise, they are 12" from the crotch seam to the top of the waist, or if you match the waist up in the front and back, they measure 15" from the center of the crotch (the rise looks short on the form because the pants are pinned closed in the back so they would stay up). Also, there is a thing pocket, just under the waisband, which I believe is called a watch pocket.
Would these be 1950s pants?
Pants: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc07708.jpg
Side View: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc07711.jpg
Front Close-up http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc07709.jpg
Back Close-up http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc07713.jpg
Close-Up of front http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08160.jpg

Once again guys, thanks so much! Anyone else that would like to join in, please do! The more I can find out about these things, the better...
Sorry about not making the photos at the top of this thread clickable links; I wasn't quite sure how to do that originally, so I am just going to list the descriptions again below, with clickable links this time.
Martina

Navy windowpane plaid wool blazer w/ gold buttons
(has flap pockets; flaps tucked in, in photos)
by Lund's Ltd. Syracuse
Jacket: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08235.jpg

Navy blue wool blazer jacket, with gold buttons
by Man in Wool
Jacket: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc07247a.jpg
Lining: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc07257.jpg

Navy wool 8-button 2-piece suit; double white pinstripes, red single in between
-flap hip pockets + right side with faux flap waist pocket
no tags anywhere
Suit: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08158.jpg
Jacket: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08159.jpg
Pants: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08151.jpg

Black wool 3 piece suit (jacket has flap pockets; in photos, flap tucked in)
by Bond Clothes for Park Lane -Syracuse & Rochester
-the vest has a chest and a waist pocket, on EACH side
Suit: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08185.jpg
6-Button vest: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08179.jpg
Back of vest: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08181.jpg
Cuffed Pants: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08176.jpg

Button fly (6 buttons) woolen pants -cuffed
no tag
-these pants have a gusset in the back, which can be removed, obviously
Pants: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08206.jpg
Button fly: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08199.jpg

Navy woolen 2-piece suit
-flap hip pockets + right side with faux flap waist pocket, no back vent
-jacket has heavily padded shoulder, upper chest & back areas
-double pleat pants, dropped belt loops, cuffed, metal Talon zip, suspender buttons
Jacket: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08257.jpg
Pants: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08259.jpg

Auburn brown blazer jacket -Thick coarse woven-look wool
by E.W. Edwards & Sons -Syracuse & Rochester (old very high end store)
Jacket: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08262.jpg
Lapel & fabric close-up: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08264.jpg

Brown pin stripe suit (I'm thinking that this one may not be 1940s)
by Barrington -Wielboldt's
-has brown nylon Talon zipper + some moth holes
Jacket: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08267.jpg
Pants: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08270.jpg

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I'm in agreement with Marc's assessments. Not sure about those new pants you listed. Is there a photo of the zip?

Did you see this thread? Loads of info on zippers, and with the people to contact if you have further queries.

http://www.thefedoralounge.net/showthread.php?t=6076&highlight=zipper

bk

 

[Martina]

Plaid pants zipper...

Hi Baron,
Here's a photo of the Talon zipper, although not close-up. My camera doesn't do close-ups and my scanner bit the dust!
http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc07710.jpg

Thanks!!
Martina

 

[Baron Kurtz]

That extended inside button fabric closure i've only seen on 70s and later trousers. It may have been used earlier. Someone else may have some more definite opinions. Any labels in the trousers?

Not sure about the zip.

btw. Any chance of a picture of the union label windowpane suit?

bk

 

[Martina]

More info and more photos!

Baron, here are the Union tag labels....

Tag from inside the windowpane jacket
http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/wndwpnetag.jpg

Tag from inside the 8-button suit jacket
http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/blustrptag.jpg

The only difference that I see in these two tags is the following-
the numbers that run up the left side of the tag.
On the windowpane they are 39884
On the 8-button pinstripe they are 85954

Also, the blue, gray, black & ivory plaid wool pants have an HF slide above the silver metal Talon zipper.

As an aside, I have another pair of brown woolen pants, no name tag, stove-pipe thin legs, 2 pleats on each side of the fly, Conmar zipper, and HF slide above the zipper. Next to the fly is an inside button hole tab but the material on this is the same cotton that the waist, fly and pockets are lined with (velvety soft, with a sort of sheen), not the pants material, as in the blue & black plaid. To complate things more so, these have a watch or change pocket right where you would expect one BUT on the inside of the pants!

Thanks for the zippers link! I think I need a refresher there. Also, do you know when the HF slides started? I have an old pair of woven woolen pants from Saks Fifth Avenue with a Talon slide and although the zipper is a Talon, it has the nylon teeth. So I am a little confused because the pants I have with the HF slide and Conmar zipper (mentioned above) seem to be older than the Saks pants... I just answered my own question, didn't I?
But now, where does that leave my blue, ivory & black plaid pants, with their Talon metal zipper and HF slide?? Yikes, so much to learn. It's a good thing that I LOVE vintage clothing!!

Thanks again, Tons & Tons!
Martina

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Both are copyright 1949 union tags. These were used from '49-'68, or thereabouts.

This, along with styling puts both solidly into the 60s (or maybe early 70s, if someone was still using old union tags.)

bk

 

[Baron Kurtz]

those 30s trousers are great. What size are they? Everything i've seen that makes its way down from the 30s is pretty small.

bk

 

[Marc Chevalier]

The blue 8-button striped one ... has a single back vent. ... Here's a close-up of the front of the jacket; I thought that I saw some 30s suits that had the odd looking lapels like these? Also, the buttons aren't chunky... but they're not quite super thin either.

Is the vent a long one? If so, then it's highly probable that the suit is from the late '60s or maybe early '70s. I really do think the lapels are from that period, too; I've never seen them on any '30s or '40s suits or fashion plates. By "chunky", I was thinking of the wide, round "donut" edging on the buttons. Suits from the '30s or '40s had more standard buttons.

The solid blue suit (dropped belt loops) has a silver colored metal Conmar zipper (vertical logo), which I'm assuming definitely dates it to the 50s, right?

The zipper can help to date it to the '50s, but the other clues (the trouser's cut, the width of the jacket's lapels and pocket flaps, and even the fabric itself) really tell us what decade it's from.

Marc says that this is from the 1980s because of the label but by the 80s didn't suits have full linings instead of the 3/4s?

Not always. Jackets -- even '80s jackets -- that were hand-tailored (or trying to capture that custom "look") often had 3/4 linings.

As for the windowpane plaid (navy with light blue and red plaid squares, & gold buttons) ...

Gold-colored buttons were rarely worn on '30s and '40s sportcoats, at least in the U.S.A. Even blue blazers of the era almost always had blue or black buttons. (In fact, "blazers" were usually the jackets of navy blue suits. The owner would separate the jacket from the pants and match it with a pair of, let's say,white flannel pants.) Martina, does this jacket have any vents? If it does, then it's probably from the earlier '80s. If it doesn't, then it probably dates to the '90s.

Here's one more pair of pants that I would like you guys to take a look at, if you could. They are a heavier wool, no belt loops, silver metal Talon zipper, and the bottom of the pants measures 10" across or 20" around.

Although these pants take their cue from 1930s "collegiate" fashion, I'm pretty sure that they're from the early 1970s. Pants from the '30s would have had plastic buttons in the waistband's closure, instead of metal fasteners. Also, a '30s pair of pants without beltloops would have had cinch buckles at either side of the waistband, in order make the pants stay on the wearer. Although these pants lack beltloops, they also lack cinch buckles. (That said, some polyester pants from the '70s and '80s did have buckles: SANSABELT is one brand that comes to mind.) All in all, I do believe that this pair is from no earlier than 1967.

.

 

[Martina]

1920s-30s Pants' size

Ok, here goes...
The 1920s-30s pants have a waist measurement of 36", including the 2" gusset in the back. Even if you wanted to remove that, these could still have a 34" waist.
Gusset: http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08200.jpg
Close-up http://members.aol.com/vintagetina/Dsc08203.jpg.

Both are copyright 1949 union tags. These were used from '49-'68, or thereabouts.

This, along with styling puts both solidly into the 60s (or maybe early 70s, if someone was still using old union tags.)

Now I'm really disapointed!! I was so sure that the windowpane and blue 8-button pinstripe suit were going to be treasures!

So the silver metal Talon zippers are not a dead 1950s deal braker huh?
You know what? I have a bunch of those pants with the adjustable slide thinggies on the side.... now of course you've forced me to take them out and look more closely at them!

One more thing, a little FYI -
I have been collecting old clothing for decades (mainly from relatives' and friends' attics and trunks). I had thought that someday I would open up a vintage clothing store. In the past 2 years I've dabbled a little on Ebay, with the thought of a vintage store still in the back of my mind. Then this past spring, the inside of my bedroom decided to become Niagara Falls due to damage on the roof resulting from an ice dam. Needless-to-say, I need a new roof on the entire house. My house at one time one was one of two barns for the area's farm/estate. I LOVE all its nooks and crannies and add-on rooms. However, this unique look adds up to lots of rooves pieced together and hence, quite a large price tag to reroof the entire house. So here I am... trying to find out information about these suits, jackets and pants, so that I can go ahead and sell them and fix my roof. Only then will I be able to go back to imagining my vintage clothing store!!

Thanks guys, once again!!
Martina