Getting a 40s suit (or two) tailor made

[Matt Deckard]

PAtterns for men's suits from the 40 and even 30's is an interesting subject I don't think has been covered.

If you can borrow a suit you like from a friend I'd say borrow it and have it coppied.
Check out this thread / http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=1305&highlight=armhole+measurement

I have yet to run across a vintage pattern for men's suits, though I have to investigate that.

Make sure the fabric you choose is stout, 13 oz. or heavier and make sure he does an armhole measurement.

 

[Film_Noir_Buff]

The so called 1940s suit in america is basically the garrick anderson look. You might want to save yourself the trouble though. A 1940s suit would have large sleeves, heavily padded shoulders a short jacket and wide lapels.

The british drape style of the period is much nicer.

You might try ebay for garrick anderson suits. A tailor can never really copy a suit, just make his version of the suit. My tailor actually made the pattern for garrick andersons suits and I see them every time I visit him, but I dont know how Id get the pattern to you. Give me your size and Ill ask him, but dont get excited, he can be touchy about such things.

 

[Matt Deckard]

The so called 1940s suit in america is basically the garrick anderson look. You might want to save yourself the trouble though. A 1940s suit would have large sleeves, heavily padded shoulders a short jacket and wide lapels.

More like the Hollywood look. The 40's american suit is what most of my friends want and most of the tailors haven't a clue how to make.

 

[Film_Noir_Buff]

Yes Matt, its the Hollywood look, though that and the "Zoot Suit" are generally what I think of when I think of USA in the forties. Post a pic here of the type of suit silhouette you mean and Ill see if Nino knows where to find a pattern for it.

 

[Matt Deckard]

I have had 3 tailors try and fail to make me a 3 button suit like the ones pictured, only to have them fail by making their own interpretation. Same goes for two made to measure companies. Next time around I'm taking a suit for them to copy.

 

[Film_Noir_Buff]

Ok, mat, Ill take these to Nino and see if he can help us out for a source of pattern.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Here is the 40's look your talking about. Classic American. Big shoulders, tight waist, longer sleeve and a gun under the jacket.

You will notice oddly enough that Bogart has his lapel button hole on the right instead of the left, and the image is not reversed... interesting.

Another point of knowledge is that eventhough the shoulders are bigger, the armholes are still cut high to allow movement.

 

[scotrace]

Suit Paterns

I've been looking for men's suit patterns from the 40's for a few years, without a whiff of success. Reverse-engineering a well-made suit from the era that you like seems like the best alternative. Then you need an excellent tailor, one who will follow your directions without interpretation. As artists who believe in their own eye, modifications are probably inevitable, and maybe not a bad thing. Part of what you pay a good tailor for is knowing how to make a suit look good on a given man's body. He/she will be instinctively inclined to make changes that he/she feels will flatter.
It seems, based on what I have personally learned, that women didn't make men's suits at home, or if they did it was uncommon, thus the dearth of patterns. Maybe more casual pants, jackets, vests or sweaters. But a suit is a very specific and dfficult undertaking. It isn't simply knowledge of sewing, it is knowledge of a wealth of secrets of cloth cutting and fitting. That's tailoring. So you need a professional's patterns. Are thos typically saved?
If anyone knows of a source for patterns, I'd be very happy to know it. There are about six styles I'd like to have made up.

 

[BellyTank]

I think it would be fair to say that suits have been available factory made and 'off-the-rack' for a long, long time indeed and 'in the day' were the everyman's suit.

I don't think there are any 'suit patterns' as such- I have '40s shirt patterns but I fear, suits(good ones) were well beyond the capabilities of the enthusiast and his/her equipment.

Reverse eng. is the key to the good stuff- or if you know a tailor who's actually a Tailor and not just an alterations guy, you have it made.
B
T

 

[Film_Noir_Buff]

Matt,

Both of those guys have their lapel boutonnieres on the right side. May have been a local hollywood tailor's style or some fashionable, cliquish thing. Or maybe someone just goofed.

Scotrace,

An actual suit from the 40s is not just the surface look, its also the guts and the things used to tie the skin over the guts. Any deviation in materials, weight of wadding, sewing techniques used, can make a garment very different from another, even from the same pattern and definitely from tailor to tailor. I have never seen two tailors make the same suit style, ever.

Honestly, the difference between suits isnt as great as people think, it comes down to interfacings, shoulder pads and the minutest of differences in say a lapel cut. This is why it is so hard to mimick a vintage suit.

 

[Matt Deckard]

.

Honestly, the difference between suits isn't as great as people think, it comes down to interfacings, shoulder pads and the minutest of differences in say a lapel cut. This is why it is so hard to mimick a vintage suit.

I have a Brooks Brothers jacket from the 70's and an Oxxford jacket from more recent years in my closet and they have the same structure, from the 3/4 lining to the curve of the sleeves... only real difference besides the fabic is the number of buttons on the sleeves.

When I put these jackets side by side with a vintage jacket from the 30's, it is apparent that not only is the vintage fabric tougher, but the tailoring is far better, at least on the examples I have seen.

The Oxxford jacket looks like a bag next to the vintage, and the shoulder are starting to pucker, and it's I'd guess a 13 oz. wool by the feel. Evern though it is a heavweight by modern standards.

The vintage jacket has the higher cut armholes, the drop back seam on the shoulders, the nipped waist, the roped shoulder, and the lining that is not falling out. The Oxxfor jacket can't be more than 10 years old and the lining is tattered, in the sleeves and in the shoulders.

My issue has always been with tailors who say "yes I can do that", you hand them the materials, and you end up with something from the 70's that loses it's shape after a year.

If you are looking for a tailor to make you a 40's style suit, you won't find him through made to measure, you won't find it through some of the Beverly Hills guys (I have seen Jack Taylors' work and talked to his clients and he makes what he wants) From those I talk too, Saville Row tries when asked, though they lean toward the 70's as well and are all about the 1 or 2 button suit and a 3 button with a chest that is too big.

I Have one more tailor who I want to follow up on in Socal, though I have my doubts. If you are looking for pants done to perfection I'd go to Jorge Avalos of Long Beach, he leans toward what he wants unless you put reins on him, though he knows his details like no t even the fellas at Oxxford do when it comes to pants. For a jacket done right I'm still looking for a real tailor.

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

Hmmm, who makes all the suits for period movies, in-house costume shops? Or are there third-party places where perhaps an individual could purchase from?

 

[Matt Deckard]

Untouchables used Armani, though their clothes don't hold up, waistbands turn inside out and liners sag. I'm sure they make some in house, though the bulk of the best stuff I see in movies is truly vintage. I remember the costumer from the movie Chicago in an interview when she was talking about how she and Richard Gear went through the costume department going through racks of vintage suits. The movie industry doesn't need to copy, and when they do, you can tell. Take The phantom for instance... the clothes are all custom and it is obvious, they look good, though mot the same is the original goods.

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

That's surprising, you would think that they would have to do some quite substantial alterations for most actors. Not to mention the trouble of finding vintage suits for large or tall ones.

I guess when you have deep pockets, a lot of problems just disappear.

 

[Matt Deckard]

It also helps if you have a personal trainer.

 

[WA]

I think some of the expectations are a bit unfair. Because, nobody has the same body shape, the clothes are each made a bit different, such as in the movies- for several reasons; sometimes mass marketing after the movie, different tailors or costume makers, to name a few reasons. Mass market construction is different than either tailored or costume.

For the last 50 years tailoring hasn't changed much, but mass market construction has changed a lot. Fused is the customers worst clothing enemy. Some of the stuff before fused was awfull looking and shabby. The better clothes of mass market made in the old days was and is really nice.

When you look at the old pictures you can see that every tailored garment is a bit different, even though, made for the same person. Also the photo's don't show the details like today, or in person. What lapel is the same?

Take for example 501's Levi jeans and put everybody in them- do they all look the same? Noooo, because they don't fit the same. So too in the past with all clothes.

In some of those old movies the jackets were made in Hollywood, others in NY, some from Savile Row, the rest- who knows where else. Some where not made by skilled people, because the fit is sloppy, sewing skills not good, etc. Fused sloppy is different than non-fused sloppy, but still sloppy. Those of you who were born 1965 or after didn't see the non-fused sloppy- it wasn't pleasant to see, either, and lots of it. But, like most always, the better clothes are good.

Wherther now or then they were all made in the eyes of the maker, sometimes trying to accomplish what the customer wants. For example, if you take 50 painters and put them in front of a house, tree and flowers and ask them each to paint what they see and nothing else- every painting is going to be different, because they each see different things and don't notice other things there. So while you see certain things in a garment the maker sees some other things. Today like then, other than manufactured, the're all different. Tailored jackets each have there own personality, there own charactics- like a living thing. There are so many varibles in a tailored jacket that no two of them are exactly a like. Today like then what tailor thinks the same as another? None! What was really out there? You ownly have a few pictures. What wasn't photograhed? 60-70 years ago there were thousands of tailors out there with there own design making how they think clothes should look; think of all the different lapels that there were- shapes and rolls. Different ideas of where the pockets go, darts, sleeve designs, back cuts., and so it goes. Today there are almost no tailors so, almost no variation.

 

[Matt Deckard]

I do believe we are in a bit of a dark age for creativity... We need more style and diversity. I need a double breasted pinstripe suit with a center pleated bi-swing belted back and patch pockets

To me there is more of a difference between the decades than there is between the tailors making the suits. Construction and details changed alot from the 20's to now. This is visable in the photos and movies from the eras, though even more visable in seeing the suits in person. The style differences between the decades are like night and day. The materials used, the shoulder silhouette, the trouser construction and shape.

I have been to many tailors in the past who have tried to copy the work that was done in the past only to find that some of the easiest concepts like those for a 30's suit, a pinched waist, skeleton lining, high cut armholes and wide lapels go against their nature. There are a few tailors like Jorge Avalos in Long Beach who can make a copy of a vintage pair of trousers without doing his own interpretation, though he is a very rare breed and is sought out by purists for the simple fact that he is a tailor that knows and wears and studies vintage... it is better!

I am researching a few tailors at the moment, and if they can provide suits made on par with what was avaialble in the 30's I will bring them to light on this forum... no more fully lined action backs that provide no action or shoulder seams that go right across the top... real copies without the modern anachronisms.

 

[Mr. 'H']

I just would love to have a suit cut like Cary Grant's in "His Girl Friday"

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I wonder what complaints people had against tailors in the 30s. I'm guessing probably just the same as we have here in this thread.

As a speculative example, imagine the young gent in his small town who just received his Sears catalogue in 1931. He goes to his tailor and says "I want that". Belt back, action back, 3 inch waistband with three offset fastening buttons, side adjustor belts, patch bellows pockets, etc. Would the tailor have been able to produce exactly what was in the catalogue? I don't know. Some would undoubtedly be able to, but most ... probably not. I think they should educate themselves if they can't do things like a FUNCTIONAL action back, but you can't blame them for being unable to.

Now, if someone were to specialise in suit styles of the era they would make a killing. We'd all be getting them to do work for us! They'd be inundated.

bk

 

[Matt Deckard]

Now, if someone were to specialise in suit styles of the era they would make a killing. We'd all be getting them to do work for us! They'd be inundated.

bk

You would think so, though the people who have the money to get suits made to their specs usually want to look like Donald Trump.... they aren't searching through the thrift stores and vintage shops for whatever they can find. I myself have gone to tailors time and again expecting them to know the old details only to be dissapointed to find out that I am the first person they have heard ask for something like a skeleton lining. In one case I was right there with former head of Oxxford Clothiers when he was visiting Beverly Hills... He'd never before seen a lining with taped seams. there is not enough interest in vintage tailoing, especially on the part of the tailors.