Ever think some jackets are overhyped

[ton312]

I am definitely a hype-er
Hyped Aero
Hyped JL
Hyped 5 Star
Hyped Vanson
Hyped Dena
Hyped IH
Hyped SB
Hyped and then un-hyped LW

Now you understand... Hyper Man...H&M...

I think this thread is hilarious. We are all fan boys. Some brands for life, some as a passing fancy...it inescapable. In the end it shows enthusiasm and I don’t think that’s bad. It’s up to the individual to decide if something is “worth the hype”.

 

[Rgcards]

Sigh.

Its 4:00 AM And Am waiting to do an emergency angioplasty on someone. So I flip to this page to pass the time as I wait for the ER to transport the patient, and I see the negativity has risen considerably. Thanks

@ Superfluous I have gone out of my way to not criticize Dave Himel or his products. I didn't want to name the manufacturer at all but sort of got shamed into it. I have stressed over and over to the point of being mocked, that I personally am satisfied with my jacket and the experience which it provides me. However, the jacket did not rise to superlatives that have been bestowed upon this maker by individuals participating on this and other forums. I actually didn't expect it to, and was not upset, but I thought it was worth starting a thread to point out how silly some of the chatter is about certain brands. Himel has been referred to as a grail jacket on the internet. I had not ever read a negative comment about their products before this thread, and again I personally dont want to make any negative comments. What I have read are derogations toward the supposed poor quality of some other manufacturers. There various threads bemoaning the "wonky" stitching on Aero jackets. More pertinent to this thread was a discussion I read about a maker named "diamond dave" who apparently was a one man show making shinki leathe jackets. There are picture on the fedora lounge bemoaning his terrible craftsmanship, which, in my opinion, are no worse than the supposed master tailors at Himel. Diamond Dave is no longer in this business, and the demise of his company seems unlamented.

I started this thread to point out that the internet has a way of creating a positive or negative momentum that perhaps has little to do with reality, and in my linguistic laziness I used the term hype. I should have been more careful with my terminology. I was just pointing out that there is a tendency to attribute great skill to certain( expensive) jacket makers, while others are criticized for excessive sloppiness. In reality all of these smaller companies that produce custom jackets or high end repros have very skilled workmen producing their products, and there are no monopolies on skill or sloppiness. These are all good jackets, and by the way, all of them are vanity purchases whose intrinsic value is much less than their purchase price. We pay the money because we like some thing about them, fit, color , leather appearance, or stitch count. In terms of their durability and ability to protect from the cold, there are probably many much cheaper products that are just as good. If someone feels that laser straight seams are what they want to pay for, I see no problem with that. If someone prefers drape and color and prioritizes stitching less that's fine too. What I find a little silly are statements like" you dont know how good a jacket can be unless you have worn a himel" or " Aero is inherently less well made", which somehow always seem to favor the more expensive jackets. These guys are talented, they are doing their best to make a living in a niche market. Just like us they may prioritize more or less certain aspects of design or manufacture, which doesnt mean that they are better or worse at making a jacket, just that they might not care as much as much about straight stitching as durability Some manufacturers ( Kelso, Lost worlds) are criticized for how much thay promote their products, while others are lauded for the rodomontande ( Himel). I personally dont like some of the undertones of Kelso or lost worlds, but they are just as entitled to be (excessively?) proud of their products as Himel . So finally, Diamond Dave, I hope you are doing well. Don't think you are the only one who has ever sewn a less than straight seam

 

[Rgcards]

Looks that there has been a lot of activity since I started the last post, went and pit in 5 stents, and finally finished. I havent read it all. Again just wanted to emphasize, its all good. No reason to put anyone down unless they are dishonest.Don't have to justify how much yo spend to anyone. Enjoy, and realize that good comes in lots of ways

 

[Mich486]

I think the discussion that came out of this has been interesting. Imho if someone wanted to buy a Himel yesterday he still does today, or at least I think he should.

Above you write:

“... I started this thread to point out that the internet has a way of creating a positive or negative momentum that perhaps has little to do with reality...”

I couldn’t agree more and I think it good to be reminded from time to time as it’s easy to get carried away.

 

[Will Zach]

I tend not to get attached to any brands, but rather to the concept that I can wear an 80-year old jacket, it still works, and looks cool, despite imperfect stitching and a $200 price tag. You guessed it, I am into vintage, which, you guessed it, gets hyped... Just check online listings, everything's vintage. I think that's the way the crowd psychology works. We are all after different things in this crazy hobby, and this thread has served its purpose in highlighting DH's somewhat sloppy stitch work. If I was after a $2500 perfect jacket instead of $200 wabi-sabi special, I'd ask DH to send me another one.

 

[Marc mndt]

I don't think this tread has derailed into negativity. I think it's an interesting discussion. People look at things differently and that's cool. Imagine we would all agree on everything said here on this forum and that we would all like and dislike the same jackets. TFL would become a boring place pretty soon I imagine

 

[Monitor]

Hahaha, okay, the first part about definition is way out of my league to argue on, against or with. Language barrier prevents me to and you may be right so... I'll agree.

You do not own a FL jacket and, to the best of my knowledge, you have never handled a FL jacket, but you nevertheless exalt FL with noteworthy conviction: "absolutely outstanding by any definition." If it looks like hype and walks like hype, it is probably hype. Just saying.

This, however, I cannot agree on.
I have handled countless leather jackets, vintage and reproductions, low and high quality. I've handled Shinki. It's not rocket science. Heck, that's probably why I'm into this hobby. It's such a simple past time that even my limited intellect can handle it. Whether I'm looking at the stitching zoomed in on a screen or while holding the jacket, it bears virtually zero difference to me. Not to sound arrogant (tho I will) but I'd say that at this point, I absolutely can tell what makes a good leather jacket vs. bad one just by looking at a photo. And I know I'm not the only one.
Seeing Greg's work in such a detail, zoomed in on Instagram or by watching Youtube videos of his jackets, is more than enough for anyone who's been thru as many of these stupid things as I have, to draw very accurate conclusion on the overall quality.

I know what to expect or rather, I don't know what negative aspect of the jacket could possibly outweigh all the good things I can plainly see just by looking at the photos online. And I'm almost always right. There are other things, too. Curved sleeves, for instance. Any maker who does that simply cannot be making a bad jacket.

So no dog piling; You are 100% right. Just not in my case.

Even more love right back at ya, especially today since it's Valentine's day.

 

[rockandrollrabbit]

. . . By my definition -- which is, by definition, a definition --

My favorite sentence I've read today.

 

[dark wood]

Yeah. All of them.

I’ve enjoyed this thread, but this is the only comment that really matters here...

 

[handymike]

We’ve all forgotten the ultimate hype. Horsehide

It took me 10 years to work through this hype.

 

[Blackadder]

Don't have to justify how much yo spend to anyone.

This is the ultimate truth but then the Outerwear thread would be very slow moving if we all do or rather don't do that. This is what we men do in forum like this or in car forum. Rationalizing our choice, justifying our spending. I don't know what women do in their forums but the women I know don't care to justify her choice of a Goyard over a Coach. They just think the Goyard monogram looks better on her and that is enough to spend triple.

 

[red devil]

Just saying there are some very fine cows, or goats out there.

Not just cows or goat, but buffalo, deer and moose as well... That last one I might hype lol

I think the biggest hype on TFL at the moment, although I’ve got a feeling it has entered a decline phase already, is 5*. There I said it. I messed up my order with them and it was entirely my own fault but to me even at that price point the leather (premium goat) is really meh.

But it’s part of the forum game and there are passing “trends” going on even on TFL. Once is a particular maker, another time is a batch of CXL, etc etc.

This is to say that even if I regard myself as someone not easily influence-able (not sure this is English), it’s easy to fall into the trap and ending up buying stuff you normally wouldn’t.

I needed to know where they were at when the hype was building up, that was the reason I made my order, learnt a lot from it.

@Rgcards , that was a very good topic to post and it generated an interesting conversation, I wouldn't feel bad at all about it

 

[Will Zach]

Buco!!!!

There, I said it!

 

[Blackadder]

Buco!!!!

There, I said it!

Now that is not about quality, that is a hype about the design. Has anyone here ever said the Buco J-24 is an ugly design? I can't remember. There must be someone who hates it not the fact that it was hyped but the design itself.

 

[jacketjunkie]

It's all just jackets and with that in mind, all brands presented here are hyped/overhyped. Thousand dollars for a jacket or 2000 dollars for a jacket, what's the difference, it's equally irrational and we only spend that much on a jacket because we are hyped about them. If we weren't hyped, we'd buy some reasonably priced 300 dollar leather jacket that does the a jacket's job of keeping us warm and dry all the same, wear that for 30 years and never look back.

 

[Monitor]

It's all just jackets and with that in mind, all brands presented here are hyped/overhyped. Thousand dollars for a jacket or 2000 dollars for a jacket, what's the difference, it's equally irrational and we only spend that much on a jacket because we are hyped about them. If we weren't hyped, we'd buy some reasonably priced 300 dollar leather jacket that does the a jacket's job of keeping us warm and dry all the same, wear that for 30 years and never look back.

That's a good point I wanted to address some time ago - I'd say leather jacket prices have stopped being indicative of... Well, anything at all, the moment they passed $800 mark.
Nowadays, it seems that everyone's just randomly coming up with crazy high prices for their jacket, with each new maker in Japan just raising the bar.
Prices at this point don't matter. Pay what you want for a leather jacket. Saying that $1200 is a realistic price for a high end leather jacket but $2200 is way too much is, frankly, ridiculous. Both are insane as long as you've got $200 jackets of a relatively decent quality hanging in any GAP store. It doesn't matter anymore.

CCP jackets cost $6000 and I've no problems with that. I cannot afford it but if I could, I'd throw that kinda money at them in an instant, understanding perfectly well that while I'm doing a foolish thing, it's no more foolish than spending $1200 on an Aero.

 

[Will Zach]

Now that is not about quality, that is a hype about the design. Has anyone here ever said the Buco J-24 is an ugly design? I can't remember. There must be someone who hates it not the fact that it was hyped but the design itself.

I meant the hype of Buco pricing. Here is a Spiegel horsehide cross-zip from 1940s (dated by sleeve zippers), much rarer than a Buco, and I like it better than a Buco. Price? $120. No hype though....

 

[El Marro]

We’ve all forgotten the ultimate hype. Horsehide itself.

....runs out of room.

Except for Shinki horsehide right, I mean that’s still the undisputed best leather ever, right?!?
Very good point Nick and one I am still reckoning with myself.

 

[TooManyHatsOnlyOneHead]

After having visited the Cal Leathers shop a couple times, my opinion on a lot of things has changed. One of the many things Gwen told me is she comes across people all the time that think she must be absolutely killing it because she's making fine leather jackets. She just started chuckling. She leads a very humble life. We talked about how it's very difficult to succeed because 1) you have to find the dedicated artisans 2) you have to find customers willing to pay 3) and if you absolutely succeed in your trade, you're making jackets that will last a life time and the repeat business drops.

About half the cost of a "luxury" jacket is the leather itself (not talking about fancy brands like Gucci or Versace, etc. but the luxury brands we know where high end leather is being used). Lets say it takes a day to construct this jacket. What's a fair amount for that worker to earn to create this master piece-- $100, $200, $300? Keep in mind, $300 translates to $75k a year for a trained artisan expected to sew laser straight stitches every time. And then if it's not the owner themselves creating it, you need to add mark up. Again, what's a fair amount to earn for the transaction? Remember to include your costs of rent, utilities, insurance, marketing, etc.

If I had to take a guess, someone like a Thurston Bros for instance is probably making $300ish a jacket. Aero directly is probably making a little more since they're going direct. IMO, there's not a lot of "hype" there. I think the hype would be true if there's $1000 of net profit on a $1250 jacket. But how much hype or IOW, how much extra value can you expect if you're being fair.

The hype value is coming from, as some have mentioned, that you can buy a pretty nice jacket in the $600 range, certainly on the second hand market even more so. So now when you're spending another thousand or more for a jacket, there is a built in comparison expectation that it is going to be wayyyyyyy better. In reality how much better can it be? So we gravitate to, "well the stitching better be perfect" or similar type things because what else would justify paying that extra money if you can buy the equivalent for $600.

I can make one of the best tasting woodfire pizzas you'll ever eat in my backyard brick oven. Probably costs me about $2 all in. I could charge maybe $12 and most people would be satisfied with that price. If I add gold leaf to the pizza, I can now charge $100. Have I changed the essence of the pizza? Have I significantly increased the likelihood the hype expectation will go through the roof? Some people are going to be thrilled because they are part of the few that can experience it. And it becomes an exclusivity kind of thing. Others are going to say it's a $12 pizza with some extra bells and whistles. I'm ok just eating the $12 pizza.

Both are right. Nobody is wrong. If it was that clear cut, there would be no luxury brands of any product.

 

[Blackadder]

That's a good point I wanted to address some time ago - I'd say leather jacket prices have stopped being indicative of... Well, anything at all, the moment they passed $800 mark.
Nowadays, it seems that everyone's just randomly coming up with crazy high prices for their jacket, with each new maker in Japan just raising the bar.
Prices at this point don't matter. Pay what you want for a leather jacket. Saying that $1200 is a realistic price for a high end leather jacket but $2200 is way too much is, frankly, ridiculous. Both are insane as long as you've got $200 jackets of a relatively decent quality hanging in any GAP store. It doesn't matter anymore.

CCP jackets cost $6000 and I've no problems with that. I cannot afford it but if I could, I'd throw that kinda money at them in an instant, understanding perfectly well that while I'm doing a foolish thing, it's no more foolish than spending $1200 on an Aero.

Again, let's not forget the USD3000 before tax price tag on a regular Langlitz columbia in Japan. The Japanese do place a higher value on these vintage style clothing but that is not just the Japanese brands. Aero actually sells at much higher price in Japan which is one of Aero's justification to not refund any VAT. A FCL would cost no more than a LL or Aero (yes both the Aero highwayman and the FCL Taylor cost around 160000 yen while a LL Corsair costs 170000 yen) in Japan. So the "ridiculously" high price is geographical as much as hype.