European Cavanagh Edges?

[Dreispitz]

I somehow got hoocked on Cavanagh Edges

Would be interesting, if there were or are European manufacturers who did something alike? There are all kinds of plain, bound, flapped over and stitched .. edges, but are there felted ones?

 

[Dinerman]

I've had borsalinos with cavanagh edges.

I had one with a double cavanagh welt, with a seamless welt on top of and on the bottom of the brim. Paper thin felt on that one, no pictures at the moment. Only hat I've ever seen with that treatment.

 

[Dreispitz]

I've had borsalinos with cavanagh edges.

I had one with a double cavanagh welt, with a seamless welt on top of and on the bottom of the brim. Paper thin felt on that one, no pictures at the moment. Only hat I've ever seen with that treatment.

Would be interesting to know, where the felt was actually made? Don´t know, if there was a demand fot that edge treatment in Europe, at all?!

Have you got a clue, what period your hat was?

 

[carouselvic]

Borsalino felted edge

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Yes, i have a Borsalino, sold in Paris, that has a Cavanagh edge - or whatever Borsalino called their version. I think it's from the 1930s.

I also used to own a 1960s Borsalino that had a "Cavanagh" edge.

bk

 

[billyspew]

I also have a Borsalino from around the early 60's that has a cav edge.

Bill

 

[Lefty]

60s Borsalino

 

[Brad Bowers]

As everybody else has said, Borsalino.

I don't know, right offhand, if any other manufacturers in Europe made these, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

Brad

 

[Dreispitz]

Thanks for the posts, everybody!

So now, we have some indication that Borsalino sold felted edge hats in Europe in the 1930ie´s, just after this process had been invented in the US.

Were the felts actually produced in Europe by Borsalino or rather sourced from a US manufacturer for sale in Europe?
Was it a parallel development?
If so, did it gain market weight in Europe?
The process was protected by patents in the USA. How could Borsalino sell such hats in the USA without some licence agreement with Cavanagh? Is there some material?

The other source is, Borsalino sold such hats in 1960ie´s in the US.

What about the patents, though? Hatco could have banned Borsalino from entering the market, unless there were some common basis, no?

Many questions lol

Other makers:

There were European makers, other than Borsalino, having intense contacts into the US market. One was Hückel of Germany. At least until 1945, prior to collectivation into TONAK. Any pre or after 1945 Hückels with Cavanagh edges around?

What about Mossant, Barbisio, Panizza, Habig? Was it only a Borsalino thing?

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Were the felts actually produced in Europe by Borsalino or rather sourced from a US manufacturer for sale in Europe?

Thi would be very surprising. If the US felt manufacturers were making such bodies in such quality at the Borsalino price point (which was not particularly high) why would they not also sell the to US hat companies? And all the evidence suggests that, at least from a layman's point of view, the European felt at this time was light years ahead in terms of quality over the American - and certainly the British - felt.

Was it a parallel development?
If so, did it gain market weight in Europe?
The process was protected by patents in the USA. How could Borsalino sell such hats in the USA without some licence agreement with Cavanagh? Is there some material?

I would imagine they did it the way everyone else did. They patented their own method.

Brad Bowers is your man on this issue.

bk

 

[Brad Bowers]

A word about U.S. patent law here:

When Cavanagh first patented the edge in 1913, it was protected for a period of 17 years, meaning no one else could make hats with that method unless they were licensed. From what I have found to date, the method was not licensed to anyone beyond the C&K factory, which is why only Dobbs and Crofut & Knapp hats will have the Cavanagh Edge from 1913 to 1930, with Cavanagh joining in 1928.

After 1930, anyone could make hand-felted edges using Cavanagh's method without paying a licensing fee or royalties. This is when the other manufacturers begin making their versions of the hand-felted edge. It's also why Cavanagh patented an improved version of his edge: to regain market exclusivity.

I've always assumed Borsalino made their own felt, and their own Cavanagh Edges.

I don't know enough about international law to say for certain that no hat companies in Europe made the Cavanagh Edge before 1930, but it appears unlikely.

As for companies patenting their own methods for replicating the same look, only a few tried it. Everyone else stuck with the original method, as it is the simplest.

Brad

 

[Dinerman]

 

[Dreispitz]

Thank you, Gentlemen!!

from the posted pictures I can erad two things.

There were cav edge Borsalinos bearing a US? patent number and such - obviously sold in Europe - without a patent number.

->

1. The felt might have been made in Europe by Borsalino.

2. If the US sold hats are 60ies, there might still have been some active patents.

If 1. applies, cav edge hat were also made and sold in Europe

What about 2., then, and other european makers? :eusa_doh:

 

[Brad Bowers]

Dreispitz,

Maybe I wasn't quite as clear as I hoped. What I was getting at is that after 1930, the patent doesn't matter - The Cavanagh Edge process was no longer protected by the patent. Any hat maker could make Cavanagh Edges without licensing, royalties, or even printing a patent number on the hat. The only hats you will find the patent number on them are Crofut & Knapp, Dobbs, and Cavanagh.

Borsalino obviously produced them, and I'm sure they sold many hats in the European markets with Cavanagh Edges. Hopefully, people will come forward with photos of these.

The question, as you said, is, did other European manufacturers make them? I would think British companies did. What about Mossant? I would think they did, too, but we need photos.

Brad

 

[ScottF]

Is it certain that the first two digits of the second half of the serial number indicate year of production? If so, my best friend in the avatar is sporting a 1962 Cavanagh-edge Borsalino.

 

[carouselvic]

That dog don't hunt.

 

[Dreispitz]

Hello Brad,

reasonable point! I was mislead by Carouselvic´s post of his light gray Borsalino (excellent piece, by the way). If I recognise it properly, there is a patent number printed on the lining. I put the hat post 1930. Maybe, that was the mistake. In case, it is a later specimen, I wonder why the patent is mentioned and what property of the hat was actually patented.

Otherwise, hither with the euro-cav-edge-pics!

Dreispitz

 

[carouselvic]

When I posted those photos I thought you were after European manufacturers who made a Cavanagh edge. If I understand you correctly now, you wanted hats made for the European market? My Borsalino has a oval that was a registered trade mark, it has nothing to do with the Cavanagh edge.

 

[Dreispitz]

When I posted those photos I thought you were after European manufacturers who made a Cavanagh edge. If I understand you correctly now, you wanted hats made for the European market? My Borsalino has a oval that was a registered trade mark, it has nothing to do with the Cavanagh edge.

So, Borsalino protected "Borsalino" lol Thank you for the clarification!

Yes, European manufactures, who made Cavanagh edges. European or international market.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

If I recognise it properly, there is a patent number printed on the lining. I put the hat post 1930.

It says "Regd US Pat Off". This is common, and by no measn restricted to Borsalino. In fact the huge majority of companies (hats or not) were labelling their stuff thusly in this era. I always took it to be the registration for the logo. Look at the similarities of Borsalino, Barlesoni and Barbisio logos in the 1930s and you'll see why they needed to patent logos!

bk