Cross Country Skiing outfits?

[JeffOYB]

It's that time of year!

I have several vintage XC ski outfits that I enjoy wearing amid the lycra-kitted crowds. I'm not a purist, though, as I find some new equipment to be essential for the kind of skiing I often do. Occasionally, I kick it all the way back to pure leather, wood, wool and bamboo!

I tried searching up an older thread for this but came up empty.

Tweed bicycling is popular today -- and I do that, too -- but XC skiing is its winter twin. There's a whole world of vintage to explore there! (I must be missing a big thread somewhere.)

We're talking lots of wool, wood skis, canvas rucksacks, trailside picnics, flasks, pipes -- the works!

I'll kick things off with a photo that isn't so great, due to being covered up. I did an adventure ski race last weekend -- 17 difficult, hilly, technical miles on a gorgeously scenic trail full of overlooks. It was rather low snow conditions so hardly anyone showed up except for 9 crazies (23 last year). A broken ski and many contusions didn't dampen apres' ski spirits in the parking lot (with hot potluck treats and tasty microbrew around the bonfire). ...And I just keep managing to win the thing (a "four-peat"). 3+ hours! So here I am, in all wool and knickers, wearing my US NB3 parka warmup, with 2nd place, getting ready to unwind...



Here are a few other pics. (I notice that at 150kb, 350kb and 650kb that the uploader won't accept them, even though the 650kb one is a 6mp image which is only small due to all the snow! So I'll place them as inline images.)

Here's one where I'm showing a vintage TECHNIQUE, not taught today, but which is still VERY useful -- the Striding Doublepole. (Try it! My OYB website has a LOT of info on this and other vintage techniques.)

Then a pic from when I did a ski-skating race...

This one is all-vintage, taken while out rucksack day-touring with the sweet ol' GWP...

 

[JohnnyLoco]

Not able to ski where I am, but I hope to take a trip soon. I cycle here in Texas, even in the winter months (unlike most), which has led me to vast and convoluted debate that has been waging in backcountry circles about the perfect layering system for high endurance winter sports and the synthetic vs. wool sub-debate. This led me to a study on vintage outdoors clothing. I would appreciate your thoughts on what the old-timers used while cross country skiing or ski touring.

From what I've been able to determine from my own study, softshells and fleece are elaborate attempts at creating a lighter and more sleek version of wool, in breathability and water resistance. Any thoughts about which works better. I know from experience that it is simple to find a used or vintage thin merino wool sweater to use as a base layer, but there are few new or even vintage thick or tightly woven wool sweaters or jackets that are zip-up, have secure pockets, and are relatively light to be used as a substitute for the modern softshell. I found a Pendleton wool flannel button-up shirt. In your pictures, it appears that this is what you seem to be wearing. How do they work out in really cold temp.? Gore-tex style membranes still seem to be the best back-up option for more inclement weather. What's the vintage solution for this?

 

[dhermann1]

Oh, boy. I used to love cross country skiing. (It's really technically Ski Touring, cross country is jus the racing part. But who the heck calls it ski touring, right?)
I have a nice pair of 70's vintage skis that need a new set of bindings. Many years ago I found a nice pair of Woolrich tan corduroy ski knickers, but have never used them. Last time I tried to go out was Christmas Day, 2002, when we had a sudden gigantic snowfall. Binding broke one step out the door. We've had exactly one decent snow day here in NYC, (last Saturday) but I didn't get out.
Le sigh.
Nice outfits. I hope somebody else picks up on this thread.

 

[Chasseur]

Wow great photos!

When I get back to a place with a good proper winter this is something I am really looking forward to doing. When I was back in Alaska year's ago I used to do late 18th trekking and did some traditional snowshoeing. The vintage 1930-50s cross country skiing is what I really want to do in the future.

 

[JeffOYB]

Not able to ski where I am, but I hope to take a trip soon. I cycle here in Texas, even in the winter months (unlike most), which has led me to vast and convoluted debate that has been waging in backcountry circles about the perfect layering system for high endurance winter sports and the synthetic vs. wool sub-debate. This led me to a study on vintage outdoors clothing. I would appreciate your thoughts on what the old-timers used while cross country skiing or ski touring.

From what I've been able to determine from my own study, softshells and fleece are elaborate attempts at creating a lighter and more sleek version of wool, in breathability and water resistance. Any thoughts about which works better. I know from experience that it is simple to find a used or vintage thin merino wool sweater to use as a base layer, but there are few new or even vintage thick or tightly woven wool sweaters or jackets that are zip-up, have secure pockets, and are relatively light to be used as a substitute for the modern softshell. I found a Pendleton wool flannel button-up shirt. In your pictures, it appears that this is what you seem to be wearing. How do they work out in really cold temp.? Gore-tex style membranes still seem to be the best back-up option for more inclement weather. What's the vintage solution for this?

Cool! : )

I don't know the history and don't do reenacting, but I find that wool is by far the best stuff in every way.

I use a very thin wool undershirt (tee) plus a medium-weight plaid wool button-shirt for skiing down to 10degF, no problem. At 10, I'll wear a longsleeve tee.

The main idea is that it's the work that keeps you warm. Then there's wicking -- wool is better by far than any synthetic for managing moisture going in or out.

Then there's wind protection. I made my own wind-jacket for cycling in winter by sewing canvas panels to the front of the check and arms of a heavy Woolrich Shirt-Jac. I also sliced the armpits and across the shoulders at the back for venting. This is the PERFECT winter jacket. All synthetics build up moisture quickly for me. I ride briskly but am not THAT sweaty -- but I'm probably 'quite moist.' Canvas is a wind break but not a moisture barrier. I adjust for the temps by varying what I wear under the Jac.

Gotta go ice skate! The lake is now frozen over and a friend is waiting. I'm using Nordic Skates. Look 'em up! They fit onto XC ski boots! Wonderful! And they're so smooth over wild ice. Later!

 

[JeffOYB]

Oh, boy. I used to love cross country skiing. (It's really technically Ski Touring, cross country is jus the racing part. But who the heck calls it ski touring, right?)

The terminology here is interesting. Nordic skiing, cross country, XC skiing, ski touring -- all the exact same. But all also covering a wide range. They can be any one or combo of racing, touring, or include telemark turning in the mountains.

On the popular image side of the sport, the skiers follow modern grooming machinery around wide and well prepared courses. The ads all show this.

But I think reality departs from the image. I suggest that most people ski in some informal setting -- along a trail or field or golf course or park near their house. Groomed courses are few and far between.

In fact, I'm starting to distinguish between "courses" and "trails," as you saw above. I'm not sure we should call those wide, groomed, mellow fabrications "trails." There's a huge amount of overhead and maintenance in them. There's a lot of expensive, polluting and noisy machinery. While trails are just trails. And XC skiing doesn't even need a trail -- it leaves a trail wherever a skier goes. I think that simplicity, sustainability and access are critical values -- which aren't really present in the modern image of XC skiing. I think this is a problem for its popularity. It's becoming more an activity of ever-fewer, ever-older Type-A elites who don't mind driving a lot, spending a lot and impacting a lot. It had a boom in the USA in the 70's when it was casual -- when young folks would go skiing together, co-ed-style, without chaperones, and bring picnics along and ski the trails and do turns on the hillsides.

Today's ski-skating entirely requires all that infrastructure. You can't just do it "anywhere there's snow." It's strange that it has an image of being easier, faster, more athletic -- because it's none of those to any big extent. Not enough to offset its limitations entirely, anyway. I know a fair number of folks young and old who have bought into this and who live nowhere near groomed ski-skating courses -- but who DO live near dozens of gorgeous TRAILS -- who, because of their bias, actually end up NOT SKIING hardly at all. Driving for hours to get to ski-skating courses is a pain, so they don't do it often, but to them it's the only "fun" kind of skiing.

Sigh.

Anyway, I'm an advocate of "just going out and skiing on whatever snow you have on whatever nice terrain you have around you." This ends up looking like a traditional form of skiing. Coincidence?

I ski all the time. I use robust, affordable gear. I don't need much snow. It doesn't have to be groomed. I ski using dozens of interesting, creative techniques on any given outing. I wear cheery, civilized attire. : )

We try to think of what kind of attractive name we can give our kind of skiing. Sometimes I call it "trail skiing." Or "adventure skiing."

I don't mind a groomed course. They're fast and easy. I just don't live near one.

But it's kinda lonely out here, promoting just-plain-skiing (and other just-plain-civil outdoor activities). We live in a state with 4 lovely seasons and among strange people who complain about the gorgeous white season that they don't even know. Thankfully, I've found some fellow just-plain-fun loving kooks to do this kind of thing with and we keep each other sane and upbeat.

 

[Late to the Party]

My mom's wool ski pants that I used to wear for sledding (the pants were from the early 1950s) were a tightly woven wool fabric. Rather thin fabric. They did a teriffic job of keeping me warm and dryish while sledding.
The fabric was a very fine worsted wool gabardine. The tight weave served to block wind and repel damp.

 

[JeffOYB]

Alpine skiing outfits would tend to be at least twice as thick/dense as Nordic skiing outfits, making them too hot and stiff for XC except for sub-zeroF.

Pre-40's alpine skiing would have a free heel, I'm thinking, as they didn't have lifts back then (or not many). Those came after WW2, as I recall (10th Mt Div vets coming home set up resorts in the US). So alpine skiing before WW2 was "earn your turns" -- you'd ski down then ski back up, needing a free heel. Maybe they had an easily released heel clamp. It's a great way to go. BC/telemark folk do it today and find it far nicer than lift-served skiing. You find your own perfect glade, ski it, then set your own "uptrack" -- a trail with switchbacks to make the climbing up easy. You need some kickwax traction. You'd wear middle-weight attire that you could unbutton a bit to not overheat on the way back up.

What ya do is find a few faces and save the north-faces for later in the day. You start at one end then ski each run a foot or two over from the last one, getting fresh powder all day out of a few acres.

 

[JohnnyLoco]

The terminology here is interesting. Nordic skiing, cross country, XC skiing, ski touring -- all the exact same. But all also covering a wide range. They can be any one or combo of racing, touring, or include telemark turning in the mountains.

On the popular image side of the sport, the skiers follow modern grooming machinery around wide and well prepared courses. The ads all show this.

But I think reality departs from the image. I suggest that most people ski in some informal setting -- along a trail or field or golf course or park near their house. Groomed courses are few and far between.

In fact, I'm starting to distinguish between "courses" and "trails," as you saw above. I'm not sure we should call those wide, groomed, mellow fabrications "trails." There's a huge amount of overhead and maintenance in them. There's a lot of expensive, polluting and noisy machinery. While trails are just trails. And XC skiing doesn't even need a trail -- it leaves a trail wherever a skier goes. I think that simplicity, sustainability and access are critical values -- which aren't really present in the modern image of XC skiing. I think this is a problem for its popularity. It's becoming more an activity of ever-fewer, ever-older Type-A elites who don't mind driving a lot, spending a lot and impacting a lot. It had a boom in the USA in the 70's when it was casual -- when young folks would go skiing together, co-ed-style, without chaperones, and bring picnics along and ski the trails and do turns on the hillsides.

Today's ski-skating entirely requires all that infrastructure. You can't just do it "anywhere there's snow." It's strange that it has an image of being easier, faster, more athletic -- because it's none of those to any big extent. Not enough to offset its limitations entirely, anyway. I know a fair number of folks young and old who have bought into this and who live nowhere near groomed ski-skating courses -- but who DO live near dozens of gorgeous TRAILS -- who, because of their bias, actually end up NOT SKIING hardly at all. Driving for hours to get to ski-skating courses is a pain, so they don't do it often, but to them it's the only "fun" kind of skiing.

Sigh.

Anyway, I'm an advocate of "just going out and skiing on whatever snow you have on whatever nice terrain you have around you." This ends up looking like a traditional form of skiing. Coincidence?

I ski all the time. I use robust, affordable gear. I don't need much snow. It doesn't have to be groomed. I ski using dozens of interesting, creative techniques on any given outing. I wear cheery, civilized attire. : )

We try to think of what kind of attractive name we can give our kind of skiing. Sometimes I call it "trail skiing." Or "adventure skiing."

I don't mind a groomed course. They're fast and easy. I just don't live near one.

But it's kinda lonely out here, promoting just-plain-skiing (and other just-plain-civil outdoor activities). We live in a state with 4 lovely seasons and among strange people who complain about the gorgeous white season that they don't even know. Thankfully, I've found some fellow just-plain-fun loving kooks to do this kind of thing with and we keep each other sane and upbeat.

Yeah, I think exactly what you're saying about skiing perfectly parallels the cycling community. "Adventure skiing," sounds good, but wouldn't that parallel adventure touring in cycling? The idea behind adventure cycling is mixed terrain cycling (from single track xc, to paved and hard pack/dirt roads) for multiple days with full camping gear. Almost sounds similar to insane "backcountry" skiing, which is basically mountaineering on skis.

"Trail skiing" is a possibility, but like you said, your type of skiing really doesn't require trails, it just requires snow. It almost sounds like "ski hiking" or "ski trekking" would better fit, where basically skiing is the most efficient form of self-powered movement (aside from snow shoes) to get from point A to point B in Northern Country. The idea behind it is "just go out and ski," which is the same idea behind the European sport of touring cycling, or the closely related randonneuring, but with a little more rugged American sensibility to it. Clothing and equipment can be well thought out, but it has nothing to do with the latest modern trends and styles, but simply with "what works."

And you're right, if you go with what works for the cold outdoors on a budget, you invariably have to go vintage, which typically will make you look less like a futuristic astronaut and more like a classy old man.

 

[JeffOYB]

Yeah, I think exactly what you're saying about skiing perfectly parallels the cycling community. "Adventure skiing," sounds good, but wouldn't that parallel adventure touring in cycling? The idea behind adventure cycling is mixed terrain cycling (from single track xc, to paved and hard pack/dirt roads) for multiple days with full camping gear. Almost sounds similar to insane "backcountry" skiing, which is basically mountaineering on skis.

"Trail skiing" is a possibility, but like you said, your type of skiing really doesn't require trails, it just requires snow. [...]

Most of the time we ARE on trails -- hiking trails. They're great for skiing. But they're not needed. If you ski close to home you'll make new tracks the first time out but the next day you have a trail! It gets faster each time, which is fun. But using skis that float in unbroken snow is cool, too.

Maybe we should just call it "skiing." If you need a chair-lift then that's called "lift-served skiing." Just plain "skiing" includes everything one does on skis in the snow without anything fancy added on. Actually, "lift-served" skiing is mostly just a form of consumption/vacationing that indoor people do on an occasional weekend. I do tend to tell folks who ask what I like to do around here in the winter that I really like to ski and that I do it most days. They say "Where?" I say "right in the parks around our house." Then I let them put whatever label on it. The main thing to me is that I'm outside, skiing, in the snow and fresh air, with glide and pleasing rhythm, every day that we have snow. I once at the Russian head coach tell me that the reason skiing is pleasing is the glide. If you have glide, you'll smile. If it seems like you're getting out more than you put in, you'll smile. I glide up most the hills, too. I know how to relax and go faster than it feels like I'm working. Instant good time. So I don't really need to call it anything but skiing. Some days, though, when we get a fresh 10" on top of a nice base, we'll say "Let's hit the pow." And I know to grab a much wider set of skis, and know that we're headed to a hidden valley bowl. Sometimes slang works. : )

Some of us are also trying to recover "backcountry" for the sane people. No reason why it has to be in the mountains. I think it just means "boonie" skiing. It might often involve making telemark turns but it can easily be done in the ravines, swales and glacial pockets of the Midwest and similar. No need for avalanche risk. Ski a trail, climb a ridge, do turns thru the trees, keep skiing -- that's BC, too. I recently composed an open letter to "BC" magazine about this issue. I'll shorten it then send it to them. For now, it's at my OYB website. Their subhead says "mountains" and "untracked" -- that "untracked" is our point of purchase to liberate the concept for non-macho skiers. : )

 

[JohnnyLoco]

Most of the time we ARE on trails -- hiking trails. They're great for skiing. But they're not needed. If you ski close to home you'll make new tracks the first time out but the next day you have a trail! It gets faster each time, which is fun. But using skis that float in unbroken snow is cool, too.

Maybe we should just call it "skiing." If you need a chair-lift then that's called "lift-served skiing." Just plain "skiing" includes everything one does on skis in the snow without anything fancy added on. Actually, "lift-served" skiing is mostly just a form of consumption/vacationing that indoor people do on an occasional weekend. I do tend to tell folks who ask what I like to do around here in the winter that I really like to ski and that I do it most days. They say "Where?" I say "right in the parks around our house." Then I let them put whatever label on it. The main thing to me is that I'm outside, skiing, in the snow and fresh air, with glide and pleasing rhythm, every day that we have snow. I once at the Russian head coach tell me that the reason skiing is pleasing is the glide. If you have glide, you'll smile. If it seems like you're getting out more than you put in, you'll smile. I glide up most the hills, too. I know how to relax and go faster than it feels like I'm working. Instant good time. So I don't really need to call it anything but skiing. Some days, though, when we get a fresh 10" on top of a nice base, we'll say "Let's hit the pow." And I know to grab a much wider set of skis, and know that we're headed to a hidden valley bowl. Sometimes slang works. : )

Some of us are also trying to recover "backcountry" for the sane people. No reason why it has to be in the mountains. I think it just means "boonie" skiing. It might often involve making telemark turns but it can easily be done in the ravines, swales and glacial pockets of the Midwest and similar. No need for avalanche risk. Ski a trail, climb a ridge, do turns thru the trees, keep skiing -- that's BC, too. I recently composed an open letter to "BC" magazine about this issue. I'll shorten it then send it to them. For now, it's at my OYB website. Their subhead says "mountains" and "untracked" -- that "untracked" is our point of purchase to liberate the concept for non-macho skiers. : )

That is awesome. All of it.

 

[Flicka]

Traditionally here, we just say 'långfärdsskidor' as opposed to 'utförsåkning'. The latter means downhill skiing and is about speed and thrills, no matter how you get up the side of the mountain. The first literally means 'travel-far-skiing' which implies it's about getting around. I know that to my grandfather grew up in northern Sweden in the teens and 20s, skiing was just a means of transportation, not a sport.

 

[JeffOYB]

Other languages can offer enlightening distinctions -- somewhere ski moves include the word for "dance." I love the Scandi term for outdoor enjoyment: "friluftsliv." Its meaning jumps out in English, too -- free air life -- with a hint of love in there ("love life").

I still think a lot of skiing is done as a combination of distance and turns/jumps/speed/play -- and it used to be even moreso that way in vintage days. Certainly even today most XC skiing is done on non-fancy, non-groomed trails. But many today aren't skilled enough to include turns/jumps in with their trail fun. -- Although equipment recently has improved enough to make this far easier. (New lite-tour boots with cuffs and new midlength XC skis with sidecut make it easy to do tricky fun things when out on tour. Thankfully this is thrifty mid-range gear, even.)

When I once skied with Europeans they included more variety than the US skiers I was used to -- it was more like how we did it when we were kids. I've heard that the reason why they keep winning is that they just love it more.

There's a Hemingway story that's inspiring -- they ski up the hills and down them (with speed and turns) and then for miles to get back home. I just kinda don't see a need to segregate these aspects of skiing since they all fit together so well. But there's certainly a place for specializing -- and to me that's when it's no longer just skiing and when the special terms are suitable. As with skis that you can't go uphill on or when you choose to base your skiing around a lift or when you have toothpick skis that you can't do downhills or turns on. So it kinda does seem like there's skiing, but when you limit it -- to grooming, or lifts, or skating, or jumps -- then you need to refine the term.

I've heard that in Norway the XC skiers will ski the trails for miles then take a lift that also covers a lot of horizontal territory, maybe to get to another range of trails. Basically, the XC skiers also sometimes take lifts. Or maybe it's that the lifts help connect towns and ski areas. Their lifts don't always only serve to get fixed-heel skiers up steep slopes. I'm obviously a bit unclear about it, but I remember it seemed neat when I heard about it -- can you assist, Flicka?

 

[Flicka]

I don't really ski anymore, but I've been at ski resorts in both Norway and Sweden where there were lifts that transport you between slopes and also between the resort area and the actual mountain slopes (Sälen in Sweden for example). As far as I know, cross country skiers use them to get to and between trails too.

But of course you can go downhill when you're cross country skiing; vice versa isn't as good an idea (though I've trailed between slopes and even across a mountain). My father's family had a cabin in northern Sweden (my grandfather was Sami) and they would sometimes ski to the mountain/fell (fjäll in Swedish) and then up and down all day. It wasn't a ski resort or anything, just a mountain. But often they'd use a snowmobile because they were lazy like that!

ETA: If you want to I could ask my mother if I could rifle through her old pics. I don't think I have any really vintage photos, but probably skiers in the 50s and 60s. Would those be of interest?

 

[JeffOYB]

I'd like seeing vintage pics of XC skiers -- if they're going along trails with some downhill thrown in that would be fine. That's my angle.

Speaking of snowmobiles... We've used a quad-runner to tow a bunch of skiers who are all hanging onto a rope for a few miles from a lodge with a nasty chopped-up two track to nice trails. And speaking of vintage skiers and snowmobiles, the winter military manuals show an array of at least a dozen troops on skis being towed by a vehicle. I think they had 2 ropes and splayed the lines of skiers on either side of the vehicle. The graphics have a vintage look but maybe they still practice such maneuvers.

 

[JeffOYB]

Here are two great vintage mixed-style skiing videos:

[video=youtube_share;F__QS6FGX6Q]http://youtu.be/F__QS6FGX6Q[/video]

[video=youtube_share;SIRTPw-E8_k]http://youtu.be/SIRTPw-E8_k[/video]

 

[Jish1969]

If you're out skiing for the day the best layering system I have found is a fleece under a windbreaker or light anorak. Fleece dries exceptionally fast and will not retain water even if it gets soaked. For the bottoms I prefer neoprene long johns and snow pants. Both my fleece and anorak have armpit zippers keep the sweat from forming when youre really hauling as well, and this is perhaps their best feature.
For years I have been XC skiing wherever there was snow from parks to trails to woods. Last year I got my first pair of dedicated BC skis, Karhu 10th Mountains with Voile 3-pin cable bindings; they are made for breaking trail and telemark turns, and can be a little sluggish compered to XC skis because of their width and camber. I took them to the resort last year and performed "admirably" I would say, but I need much more practice. I also went out to the Tug Hill earlier this month to find snow and took in a lot of miles in the backcountry on them.
The wife and I also made it to our first groomed track at Sprague Brook a few weeks ago and loved it. The backcountry really isn't her thing so this track was good for her and had some nice little hills for me to speed down, so we will definitely be going there again. It is just too bad this has been such a disappointing winter, I mean I'm in Buffalo and the snow will not stay for more than a day! Hopefully February will bring more opportunities...

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[JeffOYB]

I suppose everyone is different as regards ideal clothing. Maybe in the cold and when putting out some effort this situation becomes even more complicated as regards everyone being different. Probably the only answer is to go out with a basic outfit, try it and adjust from there. I do believe that vintage (wool) does really well for cold weather outdoor sport, so that's nice for FedLo folk! (Actually, vintage is dandy for warm weather sport, too! --Seersucker shorts and shirts are wonderful for summer biking, often a lot nicer than lycra. That stuff is only good for going superfast.)

 

[Heeresbergführer]

Grüß Di' Ski-Kameraden,

Wools are the best! When I get to ski either alpine or nordic, I'm out there with my wool pants, shirt, sweater, and poplin anorak.

I'm just waiting for some snow this winter in the DC area! Alas...it's suppose to be in the upper 60's for the next few days.


Ski Heil,

Patrick

 

[Smithy]

Only just found this thread and thoroughly enjoyed it.

I love cross country skiing, although have never done it here in Australia. Did it in northern Norway where I have lived twice. We never did trails just around family's cottages and around the countryside. Påsketur was when we did a lot. My wife used to compete in Norway so she's much, much better and faster than me

Thanks for starting the thread.