Cost of steamship passage 1935 ...

[MikeKardec]

I'm working on a project where I need to figure the cost of second and "third tourist" class (the old steerage) travel from San Francisco to Singapore (though anywhere in Asia would do). While there is lots of information on Europe to USA in the period before the Depression, I have yet to have much luck with the Pacific routes in the mid to late 1930s.

Anyone have any useful hints or reference materials???

Thanks!

 

[KILO NOVEMBER]

My great-grandfather sailed to the US from Le Havre in 1859 at the age of 18. Another great-grandfather arrived at New York in 1891. Both were farmers from Germany, the former from Hesse, and the latter from East Prussia.

According to the arrival records, the latter came over on the "main deck", by which I infer that he slept in the open air. Since he arrived in July, it must have been reasonably warm, but I have no real idea of what the temperatures in the North Atlantic are in July.

I'd like to find out how much the fares would be for these trips. I don't imagine that either had much money, so it must have been cheap. While you are finding Mike's information, if you could pass along reference material pointers for me, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

 

[Stanley Doble]

I believe the main deck meant one of the more expensive cabins on the main deck of the ship. The cheaper cabins were below decks and the cheapest of all were steerage, below the water line, without even a porthole.

Tourist class was something they invented in the twenties to fill the cabins when immigration was restricted. I believe this was for the North Atlantic trade. In the Pacific the ships and accommodations were arranged differently.

In 1935 there were still lots of unsold state rooms and cabins and prices were low. How low, I could not say.

 

[Stanley Doble]

In the 1800s there was a lot of bulky cargo like wheat and lumber going from North America to Europe and a small amount of luxury goods coming back. This made for a lot of empty ships.

To make some money on the Europe - to - North America side of the trip they established cheap passage for immigrants packing them into the hold. Steerage was the cheapest and best known but cabin or stateroom passage was also cheaper on the East to West route.

I seriously doubt anybody ever slept on the deck. Nights are cold in the north Atlantic and storm common even in July and in those days the trip would take weeks. There is no way anyone could survive on an open deck that long in all weathers.

In the 1890s a crack passenger liner might make the trip in a week or 10 days, most others in 2 or 3 weeks.

 

[Shangas]

Sailing San Francisco to Singapore direct would take the better part of two weeks or more, even in the 1930s. Singapore was a HUGE port back then (it still is today).

I've done some research about liner-travel in the Pacific (it was necessary, for a story I was writing), but while I found out lots of information about travel-times, ships, and which shipping-lines operated in which areas and which routes ran from where to where and were operated by which ships at what points in time...I wasn't able to find any information on the cost of tickets.

I could help you with almost any other aspect of ocean-liner travel, but not ticket-prices, unfortunately!

That said, as others pointed out, by the 1930s, the old-fashioned immigrant-trade (which was restricted starting in the mid-1920s) killed the fat profits made by most of the big-name transatlantic shipping-companies.

But the Pacific was likely different. It was crisscrossed by loads of smaller shipping lines, sending vessels around Asia and Africa and Europe and India. I'd speculate that the ticket-prices were probably significantly lower. Especially during the Depression.

Companies like NYK (Nippon Yusen Kaisha), or P&O (Pacific & Oriental) were the main regional steamer-companies in the Pacific at the time.

 

[KILO NOVEMBER]

The great-grandfather came to the United States aboard a 673 ton, three-masted sailing bark named Genesee which was built in 1854 at Bath, Maine. I have some evidence that this ship was chartered by a Hamburg shipping company, Knorr and Holtermann, to transport emigrants to North America. It must have been the cheapest transport available. A farm boy couldn't have had much of the readies. If the ancestor slept in one of the better cabins, it must have been with a half-dozen or more like-situated young men.

 

[Shangas]

My grandfather sailed from Canton to Singapore in the 1920s, to escape political tensions in China (Civil War and all that jazz). The journey was likely made either in a traditional Chinese junk, or in some manner of small, A-to-B steamship. It wouldn't have been very luxurious, either way. Possibly a tramp-steamer, or a cargo-&-passengers ship sailing from port to port around Southeast Asia.

Grandpa was middle-class at best. He had an education and he could read and write in Chinese, but they weren't rich by any means. Dad describes his upbringing as "lower-middle class". Grandpa's ticket was probably only a couple of dollars, or whatever he could scrape together and save. Probably the chapest passage possible, from Canton to Singapore. And even that would've taken a few days at sea.

According to my father, grandpa left China with a case of reference-books (an old Chinese encyclopedia), and one steamer-trunk, packed with his life's possessions...and that was it.

 

[MikeKardec]

Making Headway! A "late thirties" passage from Yokohama to San Francisco on NYK cost $190 2nd Class, $315 1st Class. With a stop in Honolulu it took 9 days. I have a good source that the same passage on a freighter took around 21 days (see the photo of my Dad that I use as an avatar).

From a perusal of time tables (I FINALLY found a few) and a reading of company histories on the web, it seems that only the Dollar Liners (which later became American President Lines) stand a chance of hitting both San Francisco and Singapore without changing ships. Given the Depression and the Sino-Japanese War business was not booming on many of these runs. Because of strikes in '34 and late '36 an, as yet undiscovered, Japanese carrier (probably NYK) occasionally fulfilled Dollar's obligations as far as Japan.

So now I'm looking for a ship, one of the "American President" named Dollar Liners that actually hit both SF and Singapore, how long it took and what it cost. I'm guessing at least another 6 days and at least another $80. From Japan South, steamship lines could have been a milk run with Shanghai, Hong Kong, Manila and Singapore all possibly having been on the itinerary.

If there is anyone out there who knows about Dollar or American President Lines and the "President" ships (ie SS President Hoover, SS President Coolidge, etc.), I'd sure love some info! And I'd sure love to know if anyone has sources that could prove if my guesses so far are right. I'm going to try to get into the LA for SF Maritime Museum soon as I can.

Not only do I have a character traveling to Singapore in this manner but I need to have to trade in her return ticket (so she can't go home) and I'm trying to figure out just how much trouble to get her in ... it's looking like about $300 worth. Since that's semi equivalent to $5000 in today's money according to the inflation calculator but it's unlikely she could have had a stateside job that made her more than $1,200/year at that time. Well, it's more financial trouble than it looks like at first blush.

Working out the details. Thanks for the support!

 

[Haversack]

IF you haven't seen the following sites yet, you may find them useful.

First is the APL history site:
http://www.apl.com/wps/portal/apl/!ut/p/c5/rY7LdoIwAES_hQ_QJCRRWCIJEZTwEB-w4SBF6xNaUTBfX8_poqt21ZnlnJm5IAMvX4vHYV-0h_panMEGZKM8EKYthKELg3sQuuOJZDr3kEAErMEGknxxfDauOqn4qGJ3seUw-Yw6n59lwtbYZ4Uu2dusPXWqTWLvpmIpmY-hb6KVE3FrAq_USbXXVvbXG6ffOfxFFgQpyMY_fUHgBLoSkrkzM8XCwiD5R1oPZIftZdiVlyEcIpPqI0pNgyCMkIHBOkw_erv2O87tvK-c9XiQ3ev0zt5Td1k0VVSIfZjYo_RFls-f77AiOS79pK9p_Yi4jVCTmVu78iKnLZf76ezD6K0bCq5VR63TM5KLnYO62ZZM2BzjlpQN4UgPbtQMnqElY48FpRLibuzCVZy3tF-uzth1VJXsfBYOfHGMNA3IaX2pQHN5NFO1UZWlaV88WAov/dl3/d3/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/?pcid=0dd93a804eae7833972c9f594f95a670

Second, a site showing timetables from the period for both Dollar and APL:
http://www.timetableimages.com/maritime/images/apl.htm

The second site also has other shipping lines timetables as well.

Haversack.

 

[Shangas]

If you need any help with prewar Singapore, you can send me a P.M. I've done a fair bit of studying about that.

NYK and P&O ran ships in the South Pacific. NYK ran routes from Europe to Asia, but also, I believe, around Asia as well. Like Singapore to Hong Kong, Shanghai, the various port cities of Japan, Canton and so-forth. I daresay that there would've been ships doing regular 'circle-routes', running from say, Yokohama - Teinstin - Shanghai - Hong Kong - Canton - Singapore - Yokohama again.

From San Francisco to Singapore DIRECT would be two weeks at least, I'd say. If not more. Keep in mind that the ships which did these runs were NOT the big, fancy, transatlantic floating hotels. They were the small, one-stack steamships. They traveled a lot slower, and docked a lot more frequently.

To give you an idea, this is the S.S. Hakusan Maru:

In the 30s, this ship ran a Europe-to-Asia route, via the Suez Canal. Stopping at all ports on the way, it took TWO MONTHS from Naples, Italy, to Shanghai in China (which was its route).

Singapore in the 1930s was part of the British "Straits Settlements", made up of Singapore, and various Malay states (Called 'Malaya' back then, not 'MalaySia' as it is, today).

Sorry for the quality, but here's a map of NYK routes in the 1930s:

Despite the quality, it's fairly obvious that there's no direct route from San Francisco to Singapore.

I reckon your character will have to sail from California, stop in Hawaii, refuel, recoal, drop mail, drop passengers, pick up mail, pick up passengers, possibly drop and reload cargo. And then from there, sail to China or Japan, and from there, change ships and sail to Singapore.

 

[MikeKardec]

Big thanks to everyone, especially Shangas and Haversack! I think a leg to Japan or the PI and then on to Singapore is looking like it makes the most sense. Story-wise having a look at Japan, even very briefly may be a good idea because the confused psychology of that country plays a later role ... though having a look at Shanghai would be useful too.

Eventually, I'll need a great deal of info on Singapore! For the moment I'm just preparing the ground, I have another job to finish that could take me through the end of the year depending on how fast I write. Right now it'll be great to follow up on this stuff and I need to move on to the next step of the story and learn a thing or two about repairing a broken down freighter so I'll be looking for any sources I can find in that area and visiting the Liberty/Victory ships out here. Those are about twice the size of the ship I'll be writing about but I haven't been able to find a small steam freighter this side of Norway, so far.

Thanks!

 

[Stanley Doble]

I wonder if there was a fixed price for steamer accommodation? What if the business was competitive and everyone knew a cabin not filled was a dead loss.

So, they would try to fill them at full price but would discount heavily if they had to. And the closer to sailing time the bigger the discount.

I believe cruise ships still operate on this principle. Does anybody ever pay full list price?

Many of the ships made their money on freight. Passenger fares were a sideline.

And, in the 30s business was bad generally and there was not a big demand.

So, someone who could afford to wait and take a bit of a chance, might get a real bargain the day before the ship sailed, if it had any cabins left over.

This may be why they were so coy about publishing their ticket prices and why it is so hard to pin down an exact fare now.

 

[Chasseur]

I am not much of a help for the Singapore leg of the trip, but I can give information for some of the passenger service between San Francisco and Honolulu. Matson Navigation company handled much of the commercial traffic and was instrumental in starting passenger service between Hawaii and San Francisco. They managed the Moana Hotel in the 1930s and also opened the Royal Hawaiian Hotel in 1927, and had some of the largest and most palatial liners made in the US at the time (like the Malo lo).

Some more information:
http://www.matson.com/bos/history_sec0301.shtml

 

[Shangas]

If you require any help with pre-communist Shanghai, let me know. I've done a lot of research on it (and continue to do so. It's a passion of mine). I'll help however I can and try and answer whatever questions you might have.

And I'll provide you whatever help I can with Singapore. Doubtless, Chasseur will be invaluable, should you wish information about Golden Era Hawaii.

Right now, I think your character's journey will most likely be something like this:

San Francisco to Hawaii - 3-4 days at sea.

Hawaii to Japan - One week (possibly 10 days) at sea.

Japan to Shanghai - 2 days at sea.

Shanghai to Singapore - at least 2-3 days (possibly 4).

All up, you're looking at two weeks at least, onboard various ships.

I wonder if there was a fixed price for steamer accommodation? What if the business was competitive and everyone knew a cabin not filled was a dead loss.

So, they would try to fill them at full price but would discount heavily if they had to. And the closer to sailing time the bigger the discount.

I agree. In the Depression, you had to make money any way that you could. And if that was one way to make money, I have no doubts that the shipping lines would do it.

So say a 1st class ticket is $300.

Two days before the voyage it might drop to $200.

24 hours before the voyage, it might drop to $150, or $100.

I think that makes the most sense.

I wonder if they had such thing as a "Frequent Floater" loyalty-scheme for regular passengers? Haha...