Captain America: Hydra The Whole Time?

[AmateisGal]

So I am a huge Captain America fan. I love the new Marvel movies (for the most part) and how they've depicted Cap.

However, in the Marvel Comic universe, there was a bombshell announcement made yesterday: Captain America has been a Hydra agent the entire time.

As you can imagine, social media BLEW UP. People were absolutely horrified by this revelation. I was one of them.

Here's a few articles about it:

An interview with the writer: http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/25/captain-america-villain-hydra-nick-spencer-tom-brevoort

An interview with a Marvel editor: http://time.com/4347224/captain-america-hydra-agent-marvel-tom-brevoort/

To me, this seems like a gimmick, a way to make people talk (and in that, it has succeeded beyond belief), and a cheap move. Apparently the writer is also deeply into politics and might be using Captain America for a certain political agenda. I'm not sure.

Yes, they are artists and have the freedom to write the story as they see fit. But they are also messing with a beloved character, a character with more than 70 years of history. I would think they would feel a responsibility to the character and the characters' creators to stay faithful to the character. Sure, put him in messed up situations and challenge him, but change the very essence of who he is? As a writer myself, I wouldn't dare mess with a character like this. It's disrespectful to the original creators, IMO.

What do you all think?

 

[scottyrocks]

And Disney wants to make Elsa gay in her next movie, too.

I tell ya, people don't know what to do with themselves.

 

[AmateisGal]

And Disney wants to make Elsa gay in her next movie, too.

I tell ya, people don't know what to do with themselves.

I saw that, too. Well, there was a campaign on Twitter to give Captain America a boyfriend.

The thing is, you don't take a well-established character - 70 years or more, for goodness sake! - and change him to just so you can be politically correct. That really bothers me. If people want a gay superhero or Disney character, that's fine - but don't take one that's already established and change them to fit an agenda.

 

[Harp]

- but don't take one that's already established and change them to fit an agenda.

JK Rowling I heard; long after I had ceased the Potter series, dubbed Albus Dumbledore gay-not that there is anything wrong with a character's orientation-but still....

 

[Bushman]

JK Rowling I heard; long after I had ceased the Potter series, dubbed Albus Dumbledore gay-not that there is anything wrong with a character's orientation-but still....

Actually I believe that one was clearing up a certain underlying plot point in the last book. Because, really, who sends their friend letters in the middle of the night.

This is... ugh. I don't know what the Marvel Comics division is doing, but it's not doing anything good that's for sure.

 

[1mach1]

Its a real shame. Nuff said.

 

[Edward]

Dumbledore was always gay, that was just explaining it for those who missed it.

Captain Hydra? I heard about this. It's inspired me to look it out. Never found the Captain much rngaging til the recent films; I'm interested in this as a concept. Every new generation has a new take on the same old characters; if this one doesn't appeal to a mass audience, the next will.

 

[Doctor Strange]

This is just typical comics event programming to gain media attention and stimulate sales. The story will play out in a year or two, and they'll find a way to make Steve his old self again. Honestly, after the revelation of Hydra being hidden within SHIELD in The Winter Solider film, this is a logical next step for the comics.

I was still a Marvel reader when, in the post-Watergate seventies, a Cap storyline of government corruption led his investigation all the way up to the president (implied to be Nixon). Steve's response after this shocking revelation was to give up the Captain America persona, feeling he couldn't wrap himself in the flag anymore, and for a few issues he continued heroing as "Nomad - The Man Without A Country". He soon went back to being Captain America. There have been other storylines over the years where he's been all kinds of things, even died and been reborn, etc.

This is just another early nineties "Death of Superman" type stunt to gain attention from folks who normally don't pay attention to comic books. Supes didn't stay dead for long... and Cap won't be a Hydra operative forever. This kind of what-if storytelling - and using characters for implied political commentary of the real world - is all part of the wonderful world of comics.

Thoughts on this from someone worth listening to - Jack Kirby biographer Mark Evanier:

http://www.newsfromme.com/2016/05/26/e-mailbag-273-3/

 

[AmateisGal]

This is just typical comics event programming to gain media attention and stimulate sales. The story will play out in a year or two, and they'll find a way to make Steve his old self again. Honestly, after the revelation of Hydra being hidden within SHIELD in The Winter Solider film, this is a logical next step for the comics.

I was still a Marvel reader when, in the post-Watergate seventies, a Cap storyline of government corruption led his investigation all the way up to the president (implied to be Nixon). Steve's response after this shocking revelation was to give up the Captain America persona, feeling he couldn't wrap himself in the flag anymore, and for a few issues he continued heroing as "Nomad - The Man Without A Country". He soon went back to being Captain America. There have been other storylines over the years where he's been all kinds of things, even died and been reborn, etc.

This is just another early nineties "Death of Superman" type stunt to gain attention from folks who normally don't pay attention to comic books. Supes didn't stay dead for long... and Cap won't be a Hydra operative forever. This kind of what-if storytelling - and using characters for implied political commentary of the real world - is all part of the wonderful world of comics.

Thoughts on this from someone worth listening to - Jack Kirby biographer Mark Evanier:

http://www.newsfromme.com/2016/05/26/e-mailbag-273-3/

Maybe. But the last few lines of that article kind of says it all: " It's kind of like "Build on the land I've left you but please don't strip-mine it.""

I see this latest gimmick as strip-mining it. And that bothers me. But the editor says it's NOT a gimmick, so I guess we'll see.

This fan theory is interesting: http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/05/26/crazy-captain-america-twist-possibly-explained-by-fan-theory

 

[Touchofevil]

Ugh...lame gimmick to drum up more sales. It's been done to death the past twenty plus years with the glut of titles for each character. This will pass and Captain America will go back to being the guy he is supposed to be; I hope.

 

[AmateisGal]

Ugh...lame gimmick to drum up more sales. It's been done to death the past twenty plus years with the glut of titles for each character. This will pass and Captain America will go back to being the guy he is supposed to be; I hope.

I don't think the comic book writers realized how HUGE of an impact this news would have. The writer of this series is on Twitter and he was just gobsmacked by it all. But the thing is, this goes beyond the comic book world. I've read accounts of parents whose children are just devastated by the news. They have Captain America plastered all over their walls, have the toys, have the t-shirts, etc., and now they're left to wonder if their hero is really a hero after all. And that makes me incredibly sad. IMO, it was really a jerk move.

 

[Touchofevil]

I don't think the comic book writers realized how HUGE of an impact this news would have. The writer of this series is on Twitter and he was just gobsmacked by it all. But the thing is, this goes beyond the comic book world. I've read accounts of parents whose children are just devastated by the news. They have Captain America plastered all over their walls, have the toys, have the t-shirts, etc., and now they're left to wonder if their hero is really a hero after all. And that makes me incredibly sad. IMO, it was really a jerk move.

It's Captain America, how could they not know? He is the purest of all superheroes and now they're saying he has been a big ol' evil liar all these years: a turncoat. He is supposed to represent an America we wish we could have and instead they spit on that idea because they are not clever enough to come up with a better story. Oh well, as I said earlier, they'll reright the ship later on.

 

[AmateisGal]

It's Captain America, how could they not know? He is the purest of all superheroes and now they're saying he has been a big ol' evil liar all these years: a turncoat. He is supposed to represent an America we wish we could have and instead they spit on that idea because they are not clever enough to come up with a better story. Oh well, as I said earlier, they'll reright the ship later on.

I read the writer's Twitter feed last night and he said this is not a gimmick. This is what his tweet said: "Explainer: if all this was was a cheap sales gimmick, it would've been announced weeks, if not months, beforehand."

On one hand, I feel sort of sorry for the guy - he's getting a LOT of hate right now, even a few death threats. That's inexecusable. It's ok to disagree with the guy and his story without resorting to that. But it does show how seriously people take Captain America. He's not just a fictional character; he's a symbol.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Something interesting to think about -- Joe Simon, in his autobiography, recalled that when Captain America first came out in 1941, with the famous cover showing the Captain punching Hitler in the face, the publishers caught a blizzard of hate mail from "American First" types, to the point where they needed police protection.

And yet, Jack Kirby himself drew this panel:

 

[Edward]

Something interesting to think about -- Joe Simon, in his autobiography, recalled that when Captain America first came out in 1941, with the famous cover showing the Captain punching Hitler in the face, the publishers caught a blizzard of hate mail from "American First" types, to the point where they needed police protection.

And yet, Jack Kirby himself drew this panel:

Plus ca change, plus la meme chose, non?

 

[Lean'n'mean]

Non, mais plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose, oui.

 

[AmateisGal]

Something interesting to think about -- Joe Simon, in his autobiography, recalled that when Captain America first came out in 1941, with the famous cover showing the Captain punching Hitler in the face, the publishers caught a blizzard of hate mail from "American First" types, to the point where they needed police protection.

And yet, Jack Kirby himself drew this panel:

Yes - but Cap was under a mind spell in this panel, so it wasn't really him who was saluting Hitler.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

I don't know if it's amusing or worrying that people are taking a cartoon character so seriously.

 

[Doctor Strange]

No doubt Cap wouldn't be saluting Hitler for very long in whatever story that's from!

Semi-off topic: I met Joe Simon once, back around 1980 when I was working at a printing plant/type shop on the west side of Manhattan. Sadly, he was forgotten by the comics biz and working as a commercial artist at the time, and I brought some proofs for an advertising piece he was doing up to his (tiny, cluttered) apartment for him to check. I knew who he was - besides being an old-line Marvel fan, one of my tasks there had been to scan an early typescript of his autobiography for typesetting - and I told him how respected he was by younger comics fans. He was a really sweet guy. He gave me an 11x17 b/w portfolio of reprinted splash panels from a western series he and Kirby had done ("Bullseye - He Never Misses!"), one of which is now framed and hanging here in a place of honor. (It's a classic Kirby frozen-action moment, with Bullseye's just-thrown knife huge in the foreground a la Thor's hammer or Cap's shield!)

Anyway, that was my only close encounter with one of the creators of Captain America. I never got to meet Jack Kirby, alas...

 

[AmateisGal]

I don't know if it's amusing or worrying that people are taking a cartoon character so seriously.

To a lot of people, he's much more than a cartoon character. He's a symbol. And he was a symbol when Jack Kirby created him, too, one that would stand up to Fascism. I think it's doing a disservice to Kirby and Cap's fans when you insinuate that this shouldn't be a big deal. Let's face it: Cap isn't one of the Animaniacs or Foghorn Leghorn. He symbolizes a lot more than that. He's also lasted for more than 70 years. So yeah. He's more than a cartoon character.