"Can streetcars save America's cities?" ~ cnn.com

[Xavier_Godshore]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/17/light.rail.streetcar/index.html?hpt=C1

do you think it will make a comeback...?

 

[Cricket]

My hometown of Natchez, MS has a trolley/streetcar that is still in operation in the downtown historic area. Natchez isn't an urban area by any means, but it has a rich history that attracts tourists from around the world. The historic district is perfect for it.

As a child, we would park our cars at public parking and pay a small fee to ride the trolley around town. It wasn't like we really needed a ride, but we did enjoy the novelty of it.

I love the feel of riding in one. And I would pay to ride one in order to experience that. I also think it is an attractive mode of travel.

 

[AtomicEraTom]

I wish they had one in town here. It would save a lot of wear and tear on my truck, avoiding all those short jaunts from place to place running errands if you could hop on a streetcar.

 

[Godfrey]

Here in Melbourne we have The worlds largest streetcar (tram in the local dialect) network. It is fantastic to be able to get around so easily but, best of all, many of the stops have been there for over 100 years. Shops and infrastructure are all in tune with stops - so much so I have to think about it to notice. Not only does it help local shopping and small business it's faster to get into town (for me) than car. hope you guys can bring them back.

 

[Shangas]

Melbourne has had a tram-service since the last quarter of the 19th century. If I remember my history, the first tram-service was set up in the 1870s or 1880s. It was the same cable-tram service that San Francisco still has today. Since then, the tram service has spread all over the city.

If Melbourne trams stopped running tomorrow, I can assure you that the entire city would grind to a halt. Thousands of people (myself included) rely on the trams to get us everywhere.

Trams VS. Cars have their pluses and minuses.

Trams make more noise. You've got the rattling and the doors opening and closing and the bells. Cars are faster and instantly available. But trams don't add to greenhouse gases and stuff.

I think people tend to forget that many American cities used to have very very extensive streetcar networks, that were all stopped in the 1950s and 60s. With less public transport, traffic jams have skyrocketed. I read somewhere that cities that removed their trams are now cursing their stupidity because now they've got gridlocked roads.

 

[CopperNY]

Utica,NY (about 5min away) still has many of the tracks in the street. wouldn't be too hard to rewire...

the noise wouldn't be an issue. the train tracks are about 50 yards from our house.

 

[Smithy]

As Godfrey and Shangas have stated we are very lucky here with the tram (streetcar) services here in Melbourne which are integrated with the bus and train services.

I'd use the trams at least half a dozen times a week. One of the great things getting about around in Melbourne.

Be great if they were brought back into service in cities across the USA.

 

[scottyrocks]

Im trying to image a tram or streetcar track system in New York City. A particularly busy spot that I have quite a vivid visual of is 3rd Ave up towards the 59th St Bridge during rush hour. How would a dedicated lane for a streetcar work there? Would the streetcar have to wait in traffic while cars maneuvered around it? That would essentially make it a bus. Would cars have to stay out of the streetcar 'lane,' enabling the streetcar to get around quickly, but then making car traffic even worse due to the reduction of real estate?

 

[Mr_D.]

I think it is a great idea. It would cut pollution. The only down fall I see is the city's are going to charge too much to ride so people are still going to not use them.

 

[David Conwill]

Would cars have to stay out of the streetcar 'lane,' enabling the streetcar to get around quickly, but then making car traffic even worse due to the reduction of real estate?

Think of it as greater incentive to ride the trolley.

I'm a big believer in streetcars. The tracks provide a psychological connection to public transport that bus lines can never approach.

-Dave

 

[Shangas]

Trams, streetcars, trolleys...whatever you wish to call them.

They are wonderful. As Smithy said, the trams are part of Melbourne life and they're part of the public transport network. You get off the train at Flinders Street Station and there's a tramstop RIGHT outside the station. You leave the big shopping-centers in the middle of town and there's a tramstop within a block's walk. And trams reach almost every part of the city, so getting anywhere by public transport is pretty easy.

The one thing you MUST do, however, is plan your trip. Trams in Melbourne are never on time. EVER. I've lived in Melbourne 20 years I have NEVER seen one arrive on time. They come when they come, dictated by the flow of the traffic. But that shortcoming aside, they are the best way to get around town. The lack of conductors onboard can lead some to try fare-dodging, but that doesn't work out so well when the transport authorities do a surprise blitz, checking everyone's tickets (I've seen lots of people get pinched that way for fare-evasion).

The only major gripe I have with trams these days is that they're phasing out the old W-class trams. These have been in Melbourne since the 1920s and now they're all being scrapped or something. Very disappointing and saddening. They're being replaced with new trams...but...the charm is gone.

 

[Smithy]

The only major gripe I have with trams these days is that they're phasing out the old W-class trams. These have been in Melbourne since the 1920s and now they're all being scrapped or something. Very disappointing and saddening. They're being replaced with new trams...but...the charm is gone.

Me too Shangas. The new ones have less seating and less legroom if you do get a spot. Much prefer the old ones.

And to Scottyrocks here's the VicRoads traffic laws regarding trams:

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/SafetyAndRules/RoadRules/Trams.htm

It works very, very well here. If you have a tram network which is sharing the roads with cars, etc then the road rules reflect that fact. Also the tram gets more right of way than other traffic obviously because it's public transport and you are trying to encourage the public to use a tram rather than bring their car into the city.

 

[B.J. Hedberg]

The Twin Cities (Minneapolis and St. Paul, Minnesota) used to have a fantastic streetcar system, but as much as history buffs lament its loss, bringing them back hereabouts just wouldn’t be feasible.

Costs aside, as it is now every time some misguided individual on a bike thinks they can beat the light-rail train (which has its own dedicated track outside the traffic lane) at a crossing and looses, the system is shut down and folks put on busses for hours to get around the obstruction. Not like the old days where you’d clear things out and move on. Add in the extremely litigious nature of modern society and half the line would be blocked for hours every day for investigative purposes, every time some fool in a car decided to cut off the streetcar. :car:

And of course up here we have a problem with snow. (Couldn’t find the great photo they had in the paper a while back showing cars and the trolley competing in the streets in the 40’s, so these will have to do for fun wintery photos). :smow:

In non-snowy cities with large indigenous worker populations that don’t rely on commuters from the suburbs, it would probably work well. I know, all other issues aside, I would rather ride a trolley than a bus.

What a great excuse to finally use some of those new smilies!

 

[randooch]

Even in Eugene, Oregon, some of the remnant tracks remain. It might be worth noting that when all these trolley systems were shut down in favor of cars, no one had the benefit of hindsight, as we do today. Should some of the systems be revived, tolerance for noise, slowness, and some minor inconvenience might be greater, replaced with a newfound appreciation for a reborn, "modern" wisdom.

 

[Fletch]

I'll say this - I can't imagine light rail ever working in a locality designed for cars. Things are just too decentralized. People need to go in all directions for all sorts of reasons.

In older cities and towns, there's some "there there" - some hubs, places lots of people go for lots of reasons, that are on a linear path with other such places. Here, light rail could be brought back.

The ideal place might be one with good bus ridership, but too much car traffic for the buses to move smoothly. Vancouver comes to mind. (Yes, there's some limited rail. Not nearly enough.)

B.J. has a point in that new infrastructure is bound to clash with existing infrastructure - be it physical or societal. The litigious society is the latter kind, and very, very well integrated.

 

[Shangas]

Me too Shangas. The new ones have less seating and less legroom if you do get a spot. Much prefer the old ones.

And to Scottyrocks here's the VicRoads traffic laws regarding trams:

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/SafetyAndRules/RoadRules/Trams.htm

It works very, very well here. If you have a tram network which is sharing the roads with cars, etc then the road rules reflect that fact. Also the tram gets more right of way than other traffic obviously because it's public transport and you are trying to encourage the public to use a tram rather than bring their car into the city.

I HATE those modern trams. Not only because they look butt-ugly, but also because of the reasons you state.

Very little actual seating. Almost no leg-room. You feel like you're riding in a space-ship, not a bloody tram!

 

[Godfrey]

I'll say this - I can't imagine light rail ever working in a locality designed for cars. Things are just too decentralized. People need to go in all directions for all sorts of reasons.

I saw a documentary on Portland and they talked about this. My memory may be faulty but I think they put street cars on bus routes. This utilized existing infrastructure and made the property along the line more valuable (harder to move a street car line than a bus line). This actually created the localization.

I probably use the street cars here in melbourne 3 days a week, my bicycle 2 days and my car on the weekends. Best part of a street car over a bus, no smell and much safer!

 

[scottyrocks]

And to Scottyrocks here's the VicRoads traffic laws regarding trams:

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/SafetyAndRules/RoadRules/Trams.htm

It works very, very well here. If you have a tram network which is sharing the roads with cars, etc then the road rules reflect that fact. Also the tram gets more right of way than other traffic obviously because it's public transport and you are trying to encourage the public to use a tram rather than bring their car into the city.

Thanks for the link, Smithy. Thinking about NYC’s current automobile culture, I don’t have high hopes for a successful revival for trams/streetcars.

I know many people ride the buses and subways, and each has their pluses and minuses.
Buses are above ground, a big plus for me. But they are subject to the same horrendous street traffic. Trains run underground, something I was never very thrilled with, but are not subject to street traffic.

Hence, the positives for trams. Above ground – easier to get to, and you cant get stuck in a tunnel!!! If theres a problem, you just get off. Biiig plus in my book.

If the cars can somehow keep out of the tram lanes, and abide by the rules in the link you supplied, Smithy, theyre much quicker than buses. However, NYC has never struck me as the type of place that will abide by rules like that to allow such a system to work. Drivers here do just about everything they can, short of driving in the sidewalk, to shorten the time of a trip.

Then again, if an effectively laid out tram system was introduced here that actually worked the way it is supposed to, maybe less people would drive into the city. One of the reasons I drive into the city is not because I dint like the LIRR. The railroad is quick and virtually pain-free. Its because that getting around, once in the city, is so time consuming. Buses take forever, and I don’t like being on a train underground for so long.

 

[4spurs]

New Orleans is planning on adding another streetcar line down Loyola Ave. I grew up riding the St. Charles Ave. line to school everyday; still ride it when I'm home.

It has a faint smell of grease and electrical fire and roars when it rolls; you really appreciate what quiet is when the motor suddenly goes off when it stops. Your ears get used to the quiet for just seconds, then a click, and the roar starts again and you get jolted back in your seat as the car hurtles down the tracks to the next stop, bell clanging to the personal rhythm of the driver. Every kid should ride a streetcar to school; and home after work.

 

[John in Covina]

Here in LA they haven't put in true trams but the light rail system recreates some of the old runs.

Funny thing is even with railroad crossing gates there is still some sort of vehicle - tram accident on a monthly basis.

I think that there is something in the water out here that allows people to think they can challenge a commuter train with a car and win. If we had true street cars here the slaughter would be unimaginable. In Southern California courts also tend to favor the IQ challenged, there would be class action suits against the trolley systems with in days of opening.

Famous story in LA: an empty city bus (driver only on board) had an accident leaving the bus yard to go out to start the day. With in a few days there where a number of claims put in by supposed passengers that had "sustained injuries" in the accident.