Brent Black's Panamas / Panama Hats Direct's Panamas

[belfastboy]

Many use the criterion “If no one can see the difference, it does not matter.“ but you know if you are wearing a $100 hat or a $400 hat.

I’m Im not sure I care if anyone else knows (or can see) the difference, I do and I can.

Then you have your answer....spend the money on the hat YOU want. Buy the hat you can afford and stop sweating the details. Value is in the eye of the beholder and is very very subjective. Your money, your choice.

 

[Who?]

Then you have your answer....spend the money on the hat YOU want. Buy the hat you can afford and stop sweating the details. Value is in the eye of the beholder and is very very subjective. Your money, your choice.

Absolutely! There will always be (sometimes heated) discussion, debate, and argument over whether the more expensive item is “worth” the differential in price.

 

[belfastboy]

Absolutely! There will always be (sometimes heated) discussion, debate, and argument over whether the more expensive item is “worth” the differential in price.

I love all of my Panamas, they all fit a purpose for me, they all look good. Is the custom 4 times better than the one brought back from Ecuador? Probably not, but I wanted the custom, had the money so why not??? So if you discern the difference and it is important to you, then buy the Brent Black knowing that you have a very good hat.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

My general feeling is “If it costs significantly less ….. it probably isn’t the same.”

Many take strong exception, and insist that they can get “the same thing” for less.

I remain unconvinced.

Spend what you wish to spend, and be satisfied with the result. (this time)

I’ll put a $450 Gannon up against a $1,000 custom from any of at least a dozen custom hatters and in a blind test I’d choose the Gannon every time. Heck, you can spend $1,500 for one of Nick’s hats and I’d say a $300 Stetson production hat is measurably better. While you might believe that you get what you pay for, I believe that just because it costs more doesn’t make it better.

Don’t get me wrong, I spent a lot of time and money looking to find a cheap custom hatter that would equal the best customs and I failed. A $180 Agnoulita (price adjusted for inflation) does not compare favorably with a $450 Gannon custom. However, it’s not a case of diminishing returns when you more than double Gannon’s price it’s actually getting you a subjectivity inferior hat. Sometimes all you’re paying for is the name. I also acknowledge that others have different experiences and different preferences.

 

[Who?]

I’ll put a $450 Gannon up against a $1,000 custom from any of at least a dozen custom hatters and in a blind test I’d choose the Gannon every time. Heck, you can spend $1,500 for one of Nick’s hats and I’d say a $300 Stetson production hat is measurably better. While you might believe that you get what you pay for, I believe that just because it costs more doesn’t make it better.

Don’t get me wrong, I spent a lot of time and money looking to find a cheap custom hatter that would equal the best customs and I failed. A $180 Agnoulita (price adjusted for inflation) does not compare favorably with a $450 Gannon custom. However, it’s not a case of diminishing returns when you more than double Gannon’s price it’s actually getting you a subjectivity inferior hat. Sometimes all you’re paying for is the name. I also acknowledge that others have different experiences and different preferences.

Your point is well taken, and I would be the last one to dispute it.

Having said that, I will add that the trouble with generalizations is that they are too general.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Your point is well taken, and I would be the last one to dispute it.

Having said that, I will add that the trouble with generalizations is that they are too general.

Love that turn of phrase! I had some good folks here try to steer me away from some hats that turned out to not just be inexpensive but also cheap.

I’m more on your side of spending a bit more but getting a hat (or anything) that you are completely pleased with. I’ve sold many hats, including some nice custom made hats, because they were not perfect for me. I’d rather have fewer hats that are without compromises than more with little things that always bug me.

 

[Genuine Classic Gangster]

Spend what you wish to spend, and be satisfied with the result. (this time)

Then you have your answer....spend the money on the hat YOU want. Buy the hat you can afford and stop sweating the details.

I see what you gents are getting at, but when I try to actually apply that kind of advice, I run into the dilemma of these factors conflicting with each other:

1) I very much deeply & vehemently hate the glued-on ribbons of Panama Hats Direct, and I also strongly dislike their sweatbands as well. And I'm not a fan of their liners either, but at least I find their liners to be tolerable.

2) But I do like their high weave counts in combination with them being sold for a much lower price than I can buy from any American vendor for a hat with a similar weave count.

3) In order truly to be happy with my hat, I'd want a high weave count and a high quality sweat band and a high quality ribbon as well, but I cannot get all of those things from Panama Hats Direct, and I also cannot get all of those things from an American hatter without also paying beyond my budget (either because the moderately priced American hatters don't have hat bodies that would fit my head and also my desired weave count, or because the ones that do have all that also have prices that are so high that I cannot afford to buy from them).

4) If I do as some other members do, and buy from Panama Hats Direct and then have an American hatter replace the sweatband and liner and ribbon with good quality ones, by the time I'm done paying for those services and the shipping costs, then I would have paid around the same amount, and quite possibly more, than if I would have paid if I were instead to have just bought a lower weave count hat, at a higher price, directly from an American hatter in the first place. All of which begs the question: which option is more worth it? I'm not sure.

 

[dkstott]

I don't begrudge anyone who has the available money to buy really expensive hats. As long as that $1000 hat isn't affecting their ability to pay mortgages, bills etc.

I just don't see the need. But that's just me.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

I just don't see the need. But that's just me.

Such things can be sort of a personal reward & motivator for a job well done, a life well lived.

 

[Genuine Classic Gangster]

Today I was thinking about whether or not I should go ahead and buy another hat from Panama Hats Direct.

Then I took out my liner from the old hat I have from them and looked at the inside of that hat for the first time without the liner there, and I've attached a photo to this post of what it looks like.

I notice how the inside has a lot of straws jutting out all over the place, as if they are twigs that aren't supposed to be there. It's especially bad at the very center of the of hat, but there is also a lot of that elsewhere inside the hat too.

To me, it kind of looks like my hat falling apart, but I don't know if that's an accurate judgement or not.

Are those jutting straws normal?

Do all Panama hats have problems like that?

Or if it's not normal, then does it indicate a quality problem with the straw?

Or would all straw hats become like that eventually?

 

[Bill Hughes]

Today I was thinking about whether or not I should go ahead and buy another hat from Panama Hats Direct.

Then I took out my liner from the old hat I have from them and looked at the inside of that hat for the first time without the liner there, and I've attached a photo to this post of what it looks like.

I notice how the inside has a lot of straws jutting out all over the place, as if they are twigs that aren't supposed to be there. It's especially bad at the very center of the of hat, but there is also a lot of that elsewhere inside the hat too.

To me, it kind of looks like my hat falling apart, but I don't know if that's an accurate judgement or not.

Are those jutting straws normal?

Do all Panama hats have problems like that?

Or if it's not normal, then does it indicate a quality problem with the straw?

Or would all straw hats become like that eventually?

It’s normal. Here is the inside of one of my montecristi hats. It as a weave count of 1800 WPI. It’s probably worth more than my other 90 hats combined. The wider the straw bands (and therefore lower WPI count) the more prominent the effect.

 

[Genuine Classic Gangster]

It’s normal.

Thanks for the info and photos.

Do the jumbled straws at the very center of the inside of a Panama hat make it become unstable at that spot?

Is there a chance the hat might collapse from that point? I.e. say a Panama hat takes a bunch of heavy rainfall, might that cause the straws at the center to fall apart and create a hole?

The reason why I'm asking stuff like that is because I'm trying to understand if I might run into some longevity issues with a Panama hat, such as if I spend a fortune (relative to my own finances) on an expensive Panama, and then some years later, it falls apart and becomes unusable.

Is that a reasonable worry, or no?

 

[Bill Hughes]

I’ve never seen the problem. Even on older hats.

Lowey from the 1920s.

Cavanagh from the 1920/30s. BTW This hat is listed FS in the classifieds with a different pug.

 

[belfastboy]

I see what you gents are getting at, but when I try to actually apply that kind of advice, I run into the dilemma of these factors conflicting with each other:

1) I very much deeply & vehemently hate the glued-on ribbons of Panama Hats Direct, and I also strongly dislike their sweatbands as well. And I'm not a fan of their liners either, but at least I find their liners to be tolerable.

2) But I do like their high weave counts in combination with them being sold for a much lower price than I can buy from any American vendor for a hat with a similar weave count.

3) In order truly to be happy with my hat, I'd want a high weave count and a high quality sweat band and a high quality ribbon as well, but I cannot get all of those things from Panama Hats Direct, and I also cannot get all of those things from an American hatter without also paying beyond my budget (either because the moderately priced American hatters don't have hat bodies that would fit my head and also my desired weave count, or because the ones that do have all that also have prices that are so high that I cannot afford to buy from them).

4) If I do as some other members do, and buy from Panama Hats Direct and then have an American hatter replace the sweatband and liner and ribbon with good quality ones, by the time I'm done paying for those services and the shipping costs, then I would have paid around the same amount, and quite possibly more, than if I would have paid if I were instead to have just bought a lower weave count hat, at a higher price, directly from an American hatter in the first place. All of which begs the question: which option is more worth it? I'm not sure.

Yep, you have a definite dilemma on your hands.

 

[belfastboy]

Thanks for the info and photos.

Do the jumbled straws at the very center of the inside of a Panama hat make it become unstable at that spot?

Is there a chance the hat might collapse from that point? I.e. say a Panama hat takes a bunch of heavy rainfall, might that cause the straws at the center to fall apart and create a hole?

The reason why I'm asking stuff like that is because I'm trying to understand if I might run into some longevity issues with a Panama hat, such as if I spend a fortune (relative to my own finances) on an expensive Panama, and then some years later, it falls apart and becomes unusable.

Is that a reasonable worry, or no?

Straw hats do degrade over time and wear. I have had the straw become brittle and collapse on a Panama. I have two in the shop right now in for 'repairs' on disintegrated threads on the straw. It dries out, brittlizes and crumbles. It is the nature of the beast. But for a few hundred dollars and you get years of wear from it.....celebrate its demise for a hat life well lived and buy another.

 

[Bill Hughes]

Straw hats do degrade over time and wear. I have had the straw become brittle and collapse on a Panama. I have two in the shop right now in for 'repairs' on disintegrated threads on the straw. It dries out, brittlizes and crumbles. It is the nature of the beast. But for a few hundred dollars and you get years of wear from it.....celebrate its demise for a hat life well lived and buy another.

I would think that if a straw is taken care of it will last. My older straws are not brittle in the least. There are several collectors here with straw hats over 100 years old.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Straw hats do degrade over time and wear. I have had the straw become brittle and collapse on a Panama. I have two in the shop right now in for 'repairs' on disintegrated threads on the straw. It dries out, brittlizes and crumbles. It is the nature of the beast. But for a few hundred dollars and you get years of wear from it.....celebrate its demise for a hat life well lived and buy another.

The Fedora Lounge way is to buy so many that no one hat gets worn more than five times a year and with care they’ll last forever.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Thanks for the info and photos.

Do the jumbled straws at the very center of the inside of a Panama hat make it become unstable at that spot?

Is there a chance the hat might collapse from that point? I.e. say a Panama hat takes a bunch of heavy rainfall, might that cause the straws at the center to fall apart and create a hole?

The reason why I'm asking stuff like that is because I'm trying to understand if I might run into some longevity issues with a Panama hat, such as if I spend a fortune (relative to my own finances) on an expensive Panama, and then some years later, it falls apart and becomes unusable.

Is that a reasonable worry, or no?

Maybe your answer is to be patient and find one on the used market. Every year some fine weave Panama hats show up used. You’ll find BB, Optimo/Newt, and others. There are risks, but there is also the potential for a great deal.

 

[belfastboy]

The Fedora Lounge way is to buy so many that no one hat gets worn more than five times a year and with care they’ll last forever.

I was going to mention that but thought it might muddy the waters too much! I did have a medium expensive Panama where the straw degraded and split.

 

[belfastboy]

I would think that if a straw is taken care of it will last. My older straws are not brittle in the least. There are several collectors here with straw hats over 100 years old.

I agree and yet I take meticulous care of my straws and I had one where the straw degraded and split. I have repaired a number of vintage straws with degraded areas of straw....not my hats so don't know the reason why but the rest of the hat will be pristine and have one area of damage. Tis a mystery but it does happen for whatever reason.