Bill Kelso

[Marc mndt]

You are comparing apples to pears , my wishes were, for example, a breast pocket without a zipper but with a button, a one piece back, etc. nothing earth-changing and i sent pictures (mostly of his jackets on the homepage or facebook) as examples. And i'm sure when a client comes to you and says they want something that does exactly that and brings this results, you'll find a way to make it happen, how you do it is your job. Either you can or you reject the customer outright. I didn't tell him to sew the jacket in scarstitch style exclusively by hand... I sent him pictures of other jackets and said I'd like that.

Good point. I was just replying to @Monitor who stated that ordering a custom made jacket requires specialist knowledge.

I do agree with @ton312 that it's important to think over very detail before communicating your design with the maker. Before ordering a custom jacket I usually change my mind at least 50 times. But I make sure to do so before I communicate my final design. Once I'm satisfied I send over all my wishes condensed into one pdf to the maker and that's it. No more changes.

 

[Proffset]

Good point. I was just replying to @Monitor who stated that ordering a custom made jacket requires specialist knowledge.

I do agree with @ton312 that it's important to think over very detail before communicating your design with the maker. Before ordering a custom jacket I usually change my mind at least 50 times. But I make sure to do so before I communicate my final design. Once I'm satisfied I send over all my wishes condensed into one pdf to the maker and that's it. No more changes.

View attachment 396736

Yes, I also think that's the best way, but I wouldn't rule out changes. For whatever reason, changes may occur.

small addition, your plan looks very clean i like it, when will we see the result?

 

[Marc mndt]

small addition, your plan looks very clean i like it, when will we see the result?

Not sure, with Field Leathers you need to be really patient. Ordered one year ago lol. Their jackets are awesome but 'one year plus' lead time is too long imo.

 

[Mrfrown]

@Pretext360 I do agree that your name info should be kept private if possible as others have suggested, and it was the one part of @Theodoros response that I felt was completely out of bounds.

I do think that there are differing cultural norms / language barrier clashing here, layered on top of Thedi's long and frustrating history of people tying him with Bill Kelso. That, plus calling out someone on a public platform invites a public response. Is it the most professional response? NO, it is not. Is it perhaps understandable? YES, it is.

For you or me, we're talking about a jacket and the process of getting it, about one interesting thing in a constellation of interests. For Thedi, we're talking about the entirety of his livelihood, a lifelong work in which he takes great pride, which he pours himself into every day.

Furthermore, he made a request to have everything together in one email for jacket #2. This strikes me as where cultural norm / language issues can come into play. Y'all agreed to 1 email, you thought it was reasonable to send more asking for updates etc, yet Thedi did not. Here we have messages being sent but incomplete understanding by both parties. You got frustrated when he wouldn't respond to more emails after the order, and aired those grievances here along with other comments which Thedi found personally offensive.

Some questions to consider, not necessarily to answer here: Do you think Thedi would deliver an excellent jacket to your specification whether you email him or not? Other than satisfying your curiosity/impatience, what purpose do further emails about where he is in the process serve? As has been discussed elsewhere on TFL, delays are unfortunately the name of the game with custom work from most makers.

Your discussion above about hearing bad things about Bill Kelso but only having good experiences yourself indicates to me you had some idea of the history here. But perhaps not the depth. And communication issues are common between strangers from different cultures via the internet.

Have you tried messaging him privately to reach genuine rapprochement? It's what I would do in this case. Not to grovel, but to reach a place of mutual respect again. After all how can this kind of employer / client relationship exist without mutual respect?

 

[Marc mndt]

By the way @Pretext360 I have a feeling that your first Thedi must have turned out pretty damn awesome. If you feel like it, share some pics with us. There's a dedicated Thedi thread:

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/post-thedi-leather-jacket-photos-here.99138/

 

[marker2037]

This whole Thedi vs Bill Kelso thing just needs to die. Period. They are not related, they don't seem to know of one another, they don't have a competition, and neither of them should be brought up in any of their threads/topics. Let them live in opposite ends of the spectrum, once and for all. Thedi is Thedi and Thedi makes awesome products. Bill Kelso is Bill Kelso and Bill Kelso makes awesome products. I honestly don't care to know any more than that and neither should anyone else.

I do hope that @Pretext360 can get your order sorted with Thedi and you can put this whole issue behind you both amicably.

Good point. I was just replying to @Monitor who stated that ordering a custom made jacket requires specialist knowledge.

I do agree with @ton312 that it's important to think over very detail before communicating your design with the maker. Before ordering a custom jacket I usually change my mind at least 50 times. But I make sure to do so before I communicate my final design. Once I'm satisfied I send over all my wishes condensed into one pdf to the maker and that's it. No more changes.

View attachment 396736

Marc, this is an impressive breakdown. You're like a professional jacket order-er lol.

 

[Proffset]

@Pretext360 I do agree that your name info should be kept private if possible as others have suggested, and it was the one part of @Theodoros response that I felt was completely out of bounds.

I do think that there are differing cultural norms / language barrier clashing here, layered on top of Thedi's long and frustrating history of people tying him with Bill Kelso. That, plus calling out someone on a public platform invites a public response. Is it the most professional response? NO, it is not. Is it perhaps understandable? YES, it is.

For you or me, we're talking about a jacket and the process of getting it, about one interesting thing in a constellation of interests. For Thedi, we're talking about the entirety of his livelihood, a lifelong work in which he takes great pride, which he pours himself into every day.

Furthermore, he made a request to have everything together in one email for jacket #2. This strikes me as where cultural norm / language issues can come into play. Y'all agreed to 1 email, you thought it was reasonable to send more asking for updates etc, yet Thedi did not. Here we have messages being sent but incomplete understanding by both parties. You got frustrated when he wouldn't respond to more emails after the order, and aired those grievances here along with other comments which Thedi found personally offensive.

Some questions to consider, not necessarily to answer here: Do you think Thedi would deliver an excellent jacket to your specification whether you email him or not? Other than satisfying your curiosity/impatience, what purpose do further emails about where he is in the process serve? As has been discussed elsewhere on TFL, delays are unfortunately the name of the game with custom work from most makers.

Your discussion above about hearing bad things about Bill Kelso but only having good experiences yourself indicates to me you had some idea of the history here. But perhaps not the depth. And communication issues are common between strangers from different cultures via the internet.

Have you tried messaging him privately to reach genuine rapprochement? It's what I would do in this case. Not to grovel, but to reach a place of mutual respect again. After all how can this kind of employer / client relationship exist without mutual respect?

I know Thedi Leathers has nothing to do with Bill Kelso. I also saw Theodoros statement a long time ago in which he said that he had nothing to do with Bill Kelso, I didn't imply that he had anything to do with Bill Kelso either.
I just wrote that "for me" both are on the same lvl in terms of quality and I'm by no means an expert, I just expressed my opinion. I still think Thedis washed/waxed treatment is incredibly good (my opinion). I assume because of this statement Theo escalated here? I dont know.
I just wanted to share my concern here that I haven't received an answer for over 3 months and there were still unanswered questions and that's exactly the point there were still unanswered questions, as already written waiting is not the problem.
You had written "what purpose do further emails about where he is in the process serve?" That's not what it was about, I didn't keep writing and asking how far he was... From the start I didn't even have a period of time when I would get the jacket or when he estimates that he will start with it, you want to have a period in mind when you can expect the jacket, right? If he had told me 3 months and after 3 months another 2 months, that wouldn't be a problem for me. I mean you pay the full price in advance, then it would only be fair to know something like that, but that wasn't the only question that remained unanswered, I just wish he had shared his thoughts with me instead of expose me here like that.

- Why should I try to text him privately now? I've always been polite and nice. As long as I don't get an apology from him for publishing my data here and also calling me stupid, the respect I used to have is zero. Also I don't want to text him privately just to be insulted even more. Of course that doesn't mean that I'm starting to be verbally abusive or badmouthing his work, I don't behave like that. I still think his work is excellent, I just had my problems with the correspondence, I even have Written to whether someone has had the same experience with correspondence or has any idea what's going on.


@Marc mndt I will definitely do it sometime soon


@Theodoros

EDIT: I just wanted to add something, if Theodoros is willing to write to me privately and clarify things in a communicative and polite manner, I am of course happy to do so.
I still can't understand why he attacked me like this! Actually, I had really liked his human nature until recently.
If he really wants to clarify it with me privately, which I no longer believe after his answer here and his statement that he feels relieved after canceling my order.
I don't hold grudges, I would like to know what about me upset him so much that he couldn't write it to me privately first.
What happens to the order at the end is his decision (he hasn't canceled it yet), I would have happily paid his upcharge for my change and waited the time he told me without any problems. If he cancels the order the world won't end either, but I would prefer the matter to be clarified, I don't want to cast a bad image on Thedi Leathers, that was never my intention.

If we were able to clarify the matter or not, I will then briefly describe it here politely, when the time comes. If not, my personal data and the verbal attack will remain here.

 

[Canuck Panda]

Back to the ordering first custom jacket issue:
It's like rolling the dice, the odds are always gonna be 50/50. There is no way of nudging the odds one way or another. I don't want to sound depressing or harsh, but that's been my experience. YMMV.
For repro jackets, the classifieds here is really one of the better places that I've gotten good results. I didn't have to shell out the hyped up prices to experience the jacket. It's never perfect but it's a good foundation towards the second one which could be a full custom build with the maker. The only downside is availability. Either someone else snipes it before I finish reading the post, or they are just not available like BK, and many others like FL...etc.

And regarding the new BK leathertog jacket, πολύ ακριβό! I start to see the point about price in the older threads going from Euro to Pounds. I know it's within the makers right to charge whatever they want for their jackets. And marketing with a hyped price works, for Off White, Vetement...etc. But it is 2022, when are we ever going to see a downward trend in prices!

 

[Blackadder]

@Pretext360 I do agree that your name info should be kept private if possible as others have suggested, and it was the one part of @Theodoros response that I felt was completely out of bounds.

I do think that there are differing cultural norms / language barrier clashing here, layered on top of Thedi's long and frustrating history of people tying him with Bill Kelso. That, plus calling out someone on a public platform invites a public response. Is it the most professional response? NO, it is not. Is it perhaps understandable? YES, it is.

For you or me, we're talking about a jacket and the process of getting it, about one interesting thing in a constellation of interests. For Thedi, we're talking about the entirety of his livelihood, a lifelong work in which he takes great pride, which he pours himself into every day.

Furthermore, he made a request to have everything together in one email for jacket #2. This strikes me as where cultural norm / language issues can come into play. Y'all agreed to 1 email, you thought it was reasonable to send more asking for updates etc, yet Thedi did not. Here we have messages being sent but incomplete understanding by both parties. You got frustrated when he wouldn't respond to more emails after the order, and aired those grievances here along with other comments which Thedi found personally offensive.

Some questions to consider, not necessarily to answer here: Do you think Thedi would deliver an excellent jacket to your specification whether you email him or not? Other than satisfying your curiosity/impatience, what purpose do further emails about where he is in the process serve? As has been discussed elsewhere on TFL, delays are unfortunately the name of the game with custom work from most makers.

Your discussion above about hearing bad things about Bill Kelso but only having good experiences yourself indicates to me you had some idea of the history here. But perhaps not the depth. And communication issues are common between strangers from different cultures via the internet.

Have you tried messaging him privately to reach genuine rapprochement? It's what I would do in this case. Not to grovel, but to reach a place of mutual respect again. After all how can this kind of employer / client relationship exist without mutual respect?

You could be right about the cultural difference. I also think he has read too much into people's post and has a quick temper.
I have been scorned here by Theodoros for mentioning Thedi may be a victim of possibly stolen photos on ebay. I did not expect him to post comment then as he was only mentioned in passing that a seller on ebay seems to have "borrowed a lot of photos from others including Thedi".
He was very impolite and his words include
"You talk instead to report the theft of our pictures. I thought that there is a dignity and a respect in this forum, as regards the product that we manufacture so painstakingly."
First of all the thread is not even about his jacket. His work is never mentioned in that thread except that he may possibly be a victim. The thread is about a jacket from Bronson and someone asked if that is the same Bronson jacket on ebay. I told him the seller on ebay seems fishy.
I don't see how I could have gone beyond saying beware of the seller as I did here. I have not a shed of evidence that the photos were stolen because I am not able to prove to ebay the origin of the photos. Am I supposed to write personally to Thedi to report the possible scam? I have never been a Thedi customer and I don't think I personally owe him such courtesy that I am required to write to him to report.
I shugged it off as a misunderstanding and a one-off outburst then but now....

 

[Peacoat]

Theodoros answered on page 4. Unfortunately, He included an attachment which contained personally identifiable information. I found no way to delete only the attachment and let the rest of his response stand. So I am going to delete his entire response, Because I think it is only fair for him to have his say, I am going to paste his response below.

When I first saw this thread, I knew it would come to no good. I'm not going to close it yet, but it is on its last legs. I think all has been said that needs to be said, but I will leave it open for a while and see how it goes.

By Theodoros:

I made the decision to answer for two things.
This Pakistani or Indian or Asian in general (I have absolutely no problem with these people, I worked in India for 10 years and I love them especially, since I have dozens of friends from there.) I have a specific problem with him, because he is a scammer and a liar.
These people have no place in the market, since they deceive their customers.
If I lie I challenge him to call me at 00306950977102 and speak to me in our native dialect since as he says he is a Greek who lives and works in Athens and who has one of the most beautiful names in the world. By the way, I am traveling to Athens tomorrow and I will be there until late on Sunday night. I am in the mood to meet him, to visit his company, in any part of Athens where he is based.
No more scammers.
Mercy that you deal with this anonymous person.
Second and foremost for me.
The one who opened the discussion on the forum is my client. The first jacket I made for him was a very difficult order and for which I worked for many evenings and endless hours until I perfected the pattern.
(over 10 sample tests) and adjust it to its dimensions.
It was a unique piece.
Lots of chats, huge messages, last minute changes, sketches, dimensions of other jackets, dimensions of his body and much more.
It was a difficult period for me as I had to be consistent with the orders of the 21+ stores that I had to deliver for the fall, of course in these and other special customer orders.
At the same time he had the patience to wait because he knew the degree of difficulty of his order and was positive with all the delay. It ended and I handed it over to him and whoever seemed satisfied with the result and probably for this reason ordered the second one.
So for the awareness of all of you, WE HAVE EXCHANGED 93 EMAILS (photo attached)
Imagine how much time I just needed for that.
Second order and again endless words, scattered thoughts in each message ,, I accepted it after I told him to gather all his thoughts in one message.
He did it.
I spent a period of 2 months and received a message that he completely changes the order (he did not ask me if it has progressed or if it has been cut) choosing another pattern with many extra changes and with a lot of extra work and thought on my part.
I ANSWERED HIM I on 19/1
(Theodoros Pampoukas <thedileathers@gmail.com>
19 Jan 2022, 8:18 a.m.
Good morning ______ I received it. But I was thinking
I worked on the pattern in your first application, but fortunately I
did not cut the order. It is completely different what you ask for and
with many changes. I want to study. It is not easy to do all this. I
do not know what the extra cost will be but I will let you know. Of
course this request in the email regarding 127915 does not apply; It
was just a test)
I have nothing else to say about this BK guy.
You are very stupid to compare with this scammer, I feel disgusted.
I cancel the order, I will refund his money and I feel relieved.
May you all be healthy.
THEODOROS or THEDI

 

[Mich486]

BK threads always have drama a plenty no doubt about that. Even if it’s got nothing to do with BK

I’m very curious to see your archive line jacket @Canuck Panda. I’ve been tempted myself to get a Cycle Champ but never pulled the trigger (not sure I’ll get much wear out of it, I don’t have reservations about BK as I ordered from them already and found no difference compared to say Aero or Lewis Leathers).

 

[Monitor]

I strongly disagree. When I ordered my first Thedi I didn't know jack sh*t about leather jackets. I just picked out a design, a color and added a mouton collar.

I'm sorry, I didn't word my post correctly & in full - I meant, ordering a FULLY custom, bespoke leather jacket; meaning, getting every detail perfect. Lots of people just pick color, sleeve & back length, etc. but there are some who obsess over every tiny detail. It's those guys I was referring to.

 

[JMax]

@Monitor I’m waiting for your take. Hot leathers, no H&M, no wait, Zara. Yes, Zara.

 

[Canuck Panda]

@Mich486 Vanson/HD has made a repro of the Cycle Champ. I've seen it here on FDL. It's not fancy leather but I have no doubts about the pattern and construction. I almost bought the one in Classifieds but the fit would be borderline for me.

Every one here for the BK thread, 2022, This is my theory about the brand or his archive line. It is friday night I just had a few drinks so humor me. So to be clear this is all fictitious, I use my imagination as a way of dealing with mysteries:
1. The BK boss guy is the business guy, he doesn't actually make the jackets. He has a jacket making employee/partner. Apparently he is of Italian descent according to previous threads dating back to 2013. But I bet my money that his jacket maker is as Asian as me, but with years of experience in the Made-In-Italy grind in Prato. I believe this could be the origins of the rumors that his stuff is made in China. But in reality, it is probably just made in Prato Italy by an Asian guy.
2. The archive line is BK's way of consumer test group. And also how he could build up a full range product line like Aero, without actual products. Genius. So no development is done until a customer actually orders from the Archive line. This explains why the archive line is priced at what it is, and not £1300 like the overpriced Leathertog. This also doesn't strain his only jacket maker who is good enough to do this well. Unfortunately for me, this might mean that my archive line order will take longer than usual. It's not easy developing things from scratch. And I bet my money that once the Peters jacket gets in BK's "new arrival" line, will cost £1300 like his leathertog. There is already a prototype out on facebook now. But he probably hasn't developed all the Peters labels so its still £750 archive line pricing.
3. The BK clothing brand is BK guy's side business venture. His main job is working in his big Greek Family business with other family members. And that's how he came to know his Prato jacket maker and all his China and Pakistan sourcesl. This is my theory why he was described as an American expat in Greece. But in reality he is just second generation American of Greek parents.
4. Victory HH is actually just Liberty horsehide with hand glazing on top. GW does this for free or included in his 1500 jackets, but BK is a marketing guy, so it's touted the BEST! Don't get me wrong, it takes extra labor hours to do the glazing, and is good stuff right out of the box, but the extra $$$ is more about making the brand. All horsehide will look that good with time and enough wear.
Again, everything written above are for entertainment purpose. Poorly written short story. I am quite stoked about this BK Peters, that's not fiction. Good night everyone.

 

[Marc mndt]

My take, he's Keyser Soze

 

[Superfluous]

 

[Canuck Panda]

BK may be mysterious and has not sent me any emails other than the automated order confirmation. But he just sent me my first time customer discount I forgot to use at check out. The plot has sweeten a bit for me...

 

[Boyo]

^^ I bought a BK jacket about a year or so ago, (Its always a bit concerning when you pay in full up front) but there were no major issues as I sent my requested measurements and received what I asked for. I believe I emailed 1x for a status update and did receive a reply.

 

[nickv]

This thread is the perfect Mystery novel before bedtime So....... im not patient enough to finish the book , how does the book end ? Do we know where BK jackets are made?

 

[Leigh H]

BK has made their version of the leather togs aviator jacket much like Freewheelers La Brea.

https://billkelsomfg.com/shop/product/leathertogs-aviator/