An A-2 / G-1 question for those of you who have worn or felt a Schott 184SM

[JLStorm]

I have a Schott 184SM and I use it as a mid weight jacket for mild winter days as well as a my go to fall and early spring jacket. I know its not authentic, but the leather is so darn thick and heavy that it stands up to everything I throw at it, yet its supple.

I have never worn an authentic A-2 or G-1, but have absolutely no interest in a jacket with leather that is not as thick and durable as my 184SM. Given this criteria, is it a waste of my time to look into an A-2 or G-1?

Thanks!

 

[johnnyjohnny]

GoaT!

hi...to answer your question from my experience...i had purchased the 184sm just because i fell in love with it as an 'authentic' bit of americana, if not a milspec item...

but by the time i purchased it, all my other jackets were milspec (a-2's and g-1's), which is normally what i get...i've had horsehide a-2's and goat a-2's and g-1's

goat and horsehide are not as thick, or heavy, by far as my 184sm, which to me is actually a drawback...that sucker is a tad heavier...

however, my exerience is that goat is a durable as the cowhide if the surface is not punctured or breached, however, when i've had a nick or scratch in goat, it does look like the surface has been ripped up (no matter what size the nick) and you can see the under layer...though you can certainly have it professionally glued back to seal it (or do it yourself)

BuT on some really old and chewed up cowhide jackets i have, it looks like it takes a lot more to scratch through that surface...and when it is scratched through, cowhide doesn't look like the nick or rip in the surface could just keep going...that sense that a thin top layer has been opened up...the cowhide looks like, to rip that tear any further you'd have to damage it just as severely as it was originally...i guess what i'm saying is, it doesn't have that cuticle quality, like once a rip is started it could just keep peeling back...cowhide may take a nick or deep scratch, but it looks to me (on the jackets i have) that it will take equally strong damage to expand the rip/tear...with goat, it seems once there's a rip, it wouldn't take all that much to keep the surface tearing or pulling away

as for horse, they are beautiful and are really an art piece the way they age, but they sure do register wear and damage, and have the same surface vulnerabilities as stated above with goat, in my op

for a milspec jacket in cowhide, the u.s. govt. current milspec requirements are that cowhide can be used for a g-1 (not the case with the milspec a-2, though allegedly that was done during ww2) as long as the surface pattern is stamped with the texture of goat, and, of course, the required brown colour is used

as for who makes a milspec cowhide g-1? the only seller i know of is acejackets.com/legendary.com, two websites owned by the same company, and selling only one version of a milspec cowhide g-1...they call it properly a goatgrain cowhide jacket, permitted under u.s.govt milspecs for the g-1...the one they have is NOT made under a govt contract or sold to the military, but does follow u.s.govt milspec requirements, making it milspec...and also has the 'hidden' side pockets, which are permitted under milspec g-1 requirements...howeVah, the 'fit' is 'civilian', meaning a bit fuller, rather than that more squared off, and slightly smaller, military fit (which i prefer)

my preference is to purchase a classic milspec g-1 (conforming to the old requirements of goatskin and no side pockets, hidden or not)...but if you are looking for cowhide that is current milspec, the so-called 'hellcat' is the way to go, maybe the only way...the link is:
http://www.acejackets.com/Legendary_Hellcat_G_1_Leather_Flight_Jacket_p/lhcg1.htm

as for warmer than goat? i'd say, comparing my schott 1184sm to a goat or horsehide a-2, yes, the 184sm is a tad warmer (measuring them equal, meaning not using the mouton collar on the 184sm)

however, the goat g-1's i have seem a bit warmer than my 184sm...and certainly a bit more comfie due to the flexibility and lightness...and i think the liner may be a bit warmer than that of a-2's, though i may be wrong...

however, a 184sm with the mouton on may be slightly warmer than the g-1 goat, so the cowhide goatgrain milspec g-1 might be just a touch warmer, but definitely more scratch and nick resistant, and less likely to have nicks/tears that are vulnerable to further damage than a goat/horsehide skin, in my experience and opinion

 

[JLStorm]

Wow thanks for the info. So it sounds like the milspec goat G-1s are just as tough as the thick 184SM even though the hide weights and thicknesses differ. I had no idea goat was that tough of a hide. Horse I knew was tough, but I have heard its so thin it just not as warm.

Thanks again for all of that info.

 

[johnnyjohnny]

verBoSe

hi...i've aptly been accused of being verbose, not getting to the point...so i think lost in all that i wrote was that once goat is nicked, or the surface broken, it's like the crust on a pie...you see the softer underbelly...on cowhide, the portion under the surface is a lot tougher, in my opinion, than it is in goatskin...so if you do have a nick that goes under the surface skin, it doesn't have the toughness that would be the case in cowhide...

hence, tears or surface breaches require asap repair, while my experience with cowhide is that once the surface is torn, or a tear goes through the surface, the portion under the surface is just as tough as the top skin, so you don't have that vulnerability that cowhide will easily keep tearing like you'd expect from a rip in goatskin...but other than that, i'd say goat is thinner, lighter, and, except once the surface is breached, should hold up pretty close to cowhide...

curious what you'll decide to get, if you get something other than your 184sm...i truly love my schott, but my first love are my milspec g-1's and a-2's

best, johnnyjohnny

 

[JanSolo]

A part of the weight of the Schott cowhide is due to the chrome tanning. Sure it's a thick leather but it's actual weight is to a great amount determined by the tanning techniques that have been used (chrome salts bond to the skin fibres vs. bark extacts). Today almost all leathers are chrome tanned. Chrome tanning is less expensive than veg tanning and much faster as well. Chrome tanned leather is much more supple right from the start but it's not as tear resistant and it doesn't age as well as vegetable tanned leather (given the fact that you compare the same type of leather).

Have a look at a sample of vegetable tanned goatskin. Eastman or Aero will gladly supply you with one. I've had numerous veg tanned goatskin jackets from both manufacturers (Aero sometimes offer thicker goatskins which are close to 4 ounces in weight!). If I had to pick THE toughest leather I would without doubt pick veg tanned goatskin from Aero, Eastman, or Real McCoys NZ. I used knives, punches, needles, files on heavy FQ HH, mid weight spray finish horse, steerhide veg and chrome and various veg tanned goat samples (not jackets!!!) and I really have to say that thick veg goat holds up best.
Jan

 

[johnnyjohnny]

i wear cHRoME!

thanks mr. solo...any relation to napoleon (uncle, not 1800s france)?

as for the veggie vs chrome info, which is interesting, i'd like to ask if this 'everything chromed' these days means the mid to low price jackets (that i usually get) like cockpitusa, and some other current manufacturers (i did have a recent uswings g-1 but it had a tear in the surface leather so i returned it and was banned from uswings for doing so)...

if these are chrome tanned, they are still very much lighter than the schott 184sm, aNd they tear easier than the 184sm cowhide, and once torn, the fluffy inner meat just under the surface is much more tender than the 184sm...in effect, all the stuff i verbosely enumerated above...

if that's the case (all chrome tanned these days except the expenSivo replicant jackets from eastman, chapman and those types), why would there still be the disparity between tear strength on cowhide and goat? i personally think it's the leather type...but always willing to learn

moo,
johnnyjohnny

 

[JanSolo]

Speaking in terms of pop culture I would only see a relation to Han Solo (you know, the guy that defintively shot first?)
When I was trying to express my experiences with different sorts of leathers I tried to point out that you only can compare the results of various tanning techniques when you are speaking of the same hide. I basically tried to say that at a defined thickness veg tanned steer will ultimately be stronger and longer lasting than chrome tanned steer whereas the latter will be more supple and probably more comfortable. Same with goatskin. But you can't compare Gibson+Barnes goat (which is quite nice) or Wested goat (not so nice) or the goatskin for the current German Luftwaffe jacket (looks like worn knickers with a grey spray finish on top) to the goatskin you can get from Eastman, Aero etc. simply because the hide is much thicker, heavier, and stronger. Some of Aero's goat can be as thick and stiff as their thickest FQ hh.
As I said before the Schott 184 is very thick and durable but then the original thickness of a full grain steerhide is almost up to 1.5 cm and a full grain goatskin can never be that thick. So this whole story will somehow always end up like comparing apples and oranges.
My general impression from dozens of jackets and leather samples is:
At same thickness: Goat clearly stronger than cow or horse
At same thickness: Veg tanned stronger than chrome tanned
At same thickness: Cheeseburger tastier than Hamburger.

 

[johnnyjohnny]

going soLo

thanks for the clarifications...even though the burger comparison was a bit lost on me as i'm a vegetarian (right...then why am i buying leather jackets?...ask my psychiatrist)

otherwise, do say hi to ilya kuryakin for me...

oooooops, i mean chewbacca

 

[JLStorm]

Thanks guys, this helps a lot. On another note, I have an old Schott 674 MS I bought on Ebay for about $50.00 but its really about 2 sizes small, however the steerhide is so heavy, stiff and armor like that I just love the feel and wear it when I only have a tshirt on so it fits ok (sort of). I wish I could find a jacket like that again, Jan are you saying that if I bought a jacket now that was veg tanned it might feel like that too?

 

[JanSolo]

The heavy stuff (not the mid weight A-2 leather)from Aero, Lewis, Real McCoys/ The Few, Lost Worlds might be what you are looking for. Aero's and LW's heavy FQ horse and steer is vegetable tanned with a chrome tanning on top. It's thick, heavy, stiff like cardboard (only when new as it breaks in easily) and when wearing it, the leather feels like medieval armour. Same with Eastman's, Real McCoy's NZ and Aero's goatskin. All of my Aero goat jackets where able to stand on their own when new. That's how stiff they are initially.

Good luck with your B3/ANJ-4 hybrid. Will told me that it has a beautiful large sheepskin collar. Please post some pictures!!!

 

[JLStorm]

Good luck with your B3/ANJ-4 hybrid. Will told me that it has a beautiful large sheepskin collar. Please post some pictures!!!

Thanks! Hopefully Will liked working on it and wasnt annoyed with all of my changes. Yes, I had the collar enlarged quite a bit, I am very excited to get it. I only have a camera phone at the moment, but I'll post some photos when I get it.

 

[H.Johnson]

Surely the thickness (i.e. weight) of any leather depends on a number of factors?

For instance:
- The thickness of the skin of the animal when it is slaughtered (some breeds of horse.goat/cow/yak have thicker skin, older animals usually have thicker skin than younger ones of the same breed/type etc.);
- The place on the full hide from which the jacket parts are taken (the back, and quarters [butt/front] are thicker than the flanks etc.);
- The way it is split during tanning;
- The extent to which it is pressed (i.e. rolled) during finishing;
- The amount of fatting (e.g. 'oil pulling) that goes into it.

The thickness of a piece of leather is therefore a result of preparation (tanning/finishing) and selection (before and after preparation). If a manufacturer wants thicker, heavier hide for a particular reason, they specify that from the tanner or supplier. There's no magic, no mystique, I think.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I'm no leather expert..but I've noticed quite a difference between LW and Aero's FQHH concerning the finish. Where Aero's FQHH will show wear..and has a more translucent type finish... LW seems as if it has been painted on(thicker..heavier finish)to the point of showing very little wear. Almost indestructable. Even their A2 HH has the same properties..and some have even rubbed..or worn to a blackish undercoat. In the past it's been said that LostWorlds and Aero both get their HH from Horween....but,to me,it's quite obvious that the finishes are different. Also in my view LW HH can tend to have a more pebbly looking FQHH. Anyone else notice this?
HD