Alpha b-15: What a waste of time, energy, and money

[AustinTX]

Doursoux in France do some B-15s: http://doursoux.com/en/search?contro...rch_query=b-15


Their website is a hoot for Mangl-ish: I'll take the polyfill interior with high calorific value in Wise Green.

 

[Otter]

I have one of the Alpha B 15 vintage series, bought 2nd hand on the bay for gbp 30 as nobody else wanted it. While it is not in the same league as Eastman or Buzz it is still a very nice jacket. I also have an Eastman B15 Roughwear, again from the bay which cost 175 GBP, very nice jacket, they come up reasonably regularly.

 

[AustinTX]

I have one of the Alpha B 15 vintage series, bought 2nd hand on the bay for gbp 30 as nobody else wanted it. While it is not in the same league as Eastman or Buzz it is still a very nice jacket. I also have an Eastman B15 Roughwear, again from the bay which cost 175 GBP, very nice jacket, they come up reasonably regularly.

Is the mouton collar removable on the Eastman B-15? I'm betting not.

(Answered my own question by pulling up the picture gallery. Mouton collar appears sewn in.)

 

[Otter]

Correct, sewn in but realy soft thick mouton. Even Mrs Otter and our 11 to daughter both said what a nice jacket the Eastman was and they are both philistines!

 

[Edward]

"A" was cotton. "B" was first nylon B-15. "C" was similar to "B" but with slightly asymmetrical zipper arrangement because on left side of the jacket, there was a band to fit the pilot's oxygen tube. A lot of Cs were navy blue. Probably Alpha's so called b-15c is just wrong . "D" was the first gun metal finish. Best "camo" than navy blue in case the pilot goes down.

The Alpha Replica and Vintage Series jackets both (early 90s MIA versions) were labelled "B15C/D" - the only difference between the two being the colour (as was the case with the issue jackets). The current offering, which it seems the OP purchased, is a generic B15 type which has been civilianised, so no, not especially accurate...

The B15C was specc'ed in blue because at the time (around 50/51, iirc) the then still very new US Air Force (not a spearate branch of service from the Army until 1947) was forging its own corporate identity, using blue in place of greens, browns and tans. The big thing for new pilots was to get the blue B15C.... until they landed up in the field in Korea and discovered the green Bs were more highly prized in action because they couldn't be so easily spotted by search and capture teams in the event that the pilot was downed over enemy territory... This, of course, was the reason for the switch back to green with the B15D, though I am given to understand that the blue jackets were still kept in service for this on peacetime / non-theatre of war deployments.

The mouton collar was synthetic, therefore highly flamable. When this fact was noticed after some incidents, the Command ordered to remove all collars from B-15 jackets. These B-15 are known as B-15 "mod". Eventually they were replaced with MA-1, a thicker version of L-2.

I was always under the impression that the first MA1s were essentially a factory-made-from-the-off version of the B15D, rather than the L2 jackets? Less difference between the formet two anyhow, given certain details that appeared on and off on the L2s - epaulettes, pocket flaps, et cetera...

Yes, some military nylon jackets in this era, not only MA-1, had reversible orange lining. It was for rescue purposes.

All the later L2Bs I've seen had the orange liner.

Doursoux in France do some B-15s: http://doursoux.com/en/search?controller=search&orderby=position&orderway=desc&search_query=b-15

No idea as to their quality, though. And while it isn't a B-15, Aero sells the Pike Bros B-10, which I've had my eye on.

I've been tempted by the Pike. If they did it as a B15 or B15A, I'd jump on it. Aero still do their own B10 for which they claim a higher level of accuracy than the Pike. The thing they say about the Pike is that it is "over-engineered"; I can see that compromising historical accuracy, though tbh it appeals to me...

Quite honestly, I'm very tempted by one of the Soldier of Fortune B10s going for GBP125... http://www.sofmilitary.co.uk/b10-flying-jacket-product,15285 They'd just got them in when I saw their stand at the Goodwood Revival in September, and they are pretty nice. The mouton is synthetic, but felt very nice. Overall, seemed a pretty good jacket for the cash. Certainly looked good for kicking about in with a pair of selvedge, even if they might fail the Farbe re-enactor test. I'd definitely have been tempted had they been B15 spec (I have a preference for the B15, and a lunatic idea that one day I'd like to have an affordable but half-decent copy of each of the B15 models - so far I have a B15C and B15C Mod. I'd at least like a B15D to have the green alternative to the blue).

Is the mouton collar removable on the Eastman B-15? I'm betting not.

(Answered my own question by pulling up the picture gallery. Mouton collar appears sewn in.)

That is correct - it's sewn in place, as per original spec. Some Alpha (and other) civilian version of the B15 type have a removable collar, but not the originals or any of the reasonable takes on the military issue jackets.



ETA: Those Doursoux B15s.... just me, or is the zip too central... wasn't it the B15 (maybe the B15A as well? Can't recall) that had the off-set zip? Hard to tell in thier photos if they have that detail, or a regular central zip.

 

[Doctor Strange]

I had an Alpha B-15 from 2004 to 2009, and wore it as my main winter jacket. It wasn't a Vintage or Replica model, just the standard navy blue one - I think I it cost me $79 on sale as US Wings. I really liked it, apart from the removable faux-fur collar, which besides being just WRONG, never laid right. And eventually, the zipper began to fail. When it reached the point where it required a zipper transplant, I gave it away to a member here who really needed a good winter jacket and claimed to have the sewing skill to replace the zipper himself.

I replaced it with an Alpha MA-1 a size larger that's definitely big on me, but since I use it for dead-of-winter wear over heavy sweaters I actually wanted it a bit oversized. Quality wise, this foreign-made jacket is definitely a step down from their domestic B-15 of a decade ago...

 

[Atticus Finch]

Since y'all brought it up, what makes a B-15c a "c"? Or any of the, I think, four variants (a,b,c,d?)? I believe I read that USAF started to get away from mouton collars because of fouling with parachute harnesses or some such. While we're there, how long were MA-1's made with the reversible orange lining?

There many minor variations in the B-15, but the major ones were in the material used for the shell and lining as well as one variation in how the zipper zipped. The B-15C was the only one that was blue, but there were also sage B-15Cs. The first MA-1 with an orange lining was the 1961 Satellite contract...orange interior was standard after that until the MA-1 was pulled from flight status in the late 1970s.

AF

 

[Atticus Finch]

You are correct about the collars. The knit collar on the B-15C (mod) and B-D (mod) probably started as a field modification made by aircrew who tired of their jacket collars getting in the way of their other equipment. Soon, the AF began gathering up B-15Cs and Ds and modifying them officially. That's why some people swear they've seen an issued blue MA-1. They were actually seeing a B-15C (mod). Sometime in 1954, the AF went to a new nomenclature system and the B-15D (mod) was renamed the MA-1.

AF

 

[Aerojoe]

I was always under the impression that the first MA1s were essentially a factory-made-from-the-off version of the B15D, rather than the L2 jackets? Less difference between the formet two anyhow, given certain details that appeared on and off on the L2s - epaulettes, pocket flaps, et cetera...

Nop MA-1 was already in use, since as early as 1949. It was issued to some few units. Probably when a mouton collar wasn't an option for any particular or technical reason. However, B-15's collar seems to be more appropiated for the Korea war era.

I guess MA-1 is the logical replacement for a B-15B, C or D. You remove B-15's collar and you basically have a MA-1.

I think Alpha's vintage series are not historically accurated Just check their "vintage" zipper arrangament and compare with a real one. The real B-15C was the Marilyn in Korea jacket. One of the most recognizable nylon jackets ever.

Buzz Rickson's B-15C is more accurated but their pricing is crazy. Their L-2 in their European shop runs for 400 pounds :eeek:

 

[Edward]

Nop MA-1 was already in use, since as early as 1949. It was issued to some few units. Probably when a mouton collar wasn't an option for any particular or technical reason. However, B-15's collar seems to be more appropiated for the Korea war era.

Interesting, I've never heard of that before. Is there more information on this somewhere?

I guess MA-1 is the logical replacement for a B-15B, C or D. You remove B-15's collar and you basically have a MA-1.

Yes, the MA1 from 1957ish was essentially a B15D Mod in all but name. That's the lastflight jacket I'd really be interested in owning, the MA1 than saw out the end of the fifites with the green liner. Orange liners in the sixties and later jackets are my bag (not saying they're bad, they just fall out of my area of interest).

I think Alpha's vintage series are not historically accurated Just check their "vintage" zipper arrangament and compare with a real one. The real B-15C was the Marilyn in Korea jacket. One of the most recognizable nylon jackets ever.

Yes, alpha still use the shot of Marilyn in the B15C inn their promo material today. I wodner what happened that jacket? I'm sure it's worth two fortunes if it's still out there.

The Alpha Vintage Series was of limited historical accuracy. The generic shape and so on was correct, but some of the colours were off. The B15C & L2A (I have one of the latter) were of a much lighter blue ("Vintage Blue") than the originals. The zips have an Alpha brand on them, and there is an Alpha tag on the cigarette pocket. The labels are also not issue-spec. Nice jackets as jackets, though. The Alpha Replica Series from the same period (US made, early 90s - not the same as the REplica jackets they are currently selling) are actually pretty accurate. The main lapse from accuracy is that the knits are nylon rather than wool (though in all honesty, comparing it directly to my Buzz, well.... it's the latter I'm now having to face shelling out to have knits redone on because of moth damage...). The Alpha doesn't have the nice, chunky Crown zippers on the Buzz, but the Schovils it does have are, I am given to understand, also good reproductions of a type used on issue jackets. These do not have Alpha branding on them, and the jacket lacks the Alpha tag on the cigarette pocket. Not on the level of the Buzz. To give it a crude comparison, I'd equate it to comparing one of Eastman's highest end repro A2s to a Goodwear, except with a much bigger price difference. As ever, it's up to the buyer whether well ovder double the price is worth it for the level by which accuracy is improved...

Buzz Rickson's B-15C is more accurated but their pricing is crazy. Their L-2 in their European shop runs for 400 pounds :eeek:

Yeah. I can kinda almost sorta but a bit not really but yes I can see the money in their B15s (oddly, despite the fact that there's not that much difference in the raw material prices for one of those and a good A2, I still baulk at the idea of paying out the big money for a nylon jacket - seems somehow easier to justify when it's leather...). £400 odds for an L2 - basically a nylon windbreaker.... hells, if Alpha would just reissue the L2/L2A/L2B they used to do in the Replica Series, they could very easily sell it for fifty odd quid (it's not exactly a complicated jacket) and blow 'em out of the water. I love the Buzz, don't gt me wrong, but it's insane money for what it is.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Interesting, I've never heard of that before. Is there more information on this somewhere?

The same erroneous quote about MA-1s being issued to special units in 1949 or 1950 appears in many places on the net. The first MA-1 (mil-j-8279) contract was let to Lion Uniform in fiscal year 1953.

AF

 

[Aerojoe]

The same erroneous quote about MA-1s being issued to special units in 1949 or 1950 appears in many places on the net. The first MA-1 (mil-j-8279) contract was let to Lion Uniform in fiscal year 1953.

I don't think it is erronous. It makes sense that MA-1 was developed at the same time than L-2 because it is basically the same jacket, a thicker L-2 with no epaulets and other minor details. Another different discussion would be when the first contract was awarded.

What the books say is they were given to some units. Maybe they were testing these early jackets as a prototype, I don't know. I have seen pictures where it appears as a test jacket, like this one;

Anyway, the point is that MA-1 didn't appear after the B-15 "mod". It was developed all by itself.

 

[Aerojoe]

if Alpha would just reissue the L2/L2A/L2B they used to do in the Replica Series, they could very easily sell it for fifty odd quid (it's not exactly a complicated jacket) and blow 'em out of the water. I love the Buzz, don't gt me wrong, but it's insane money for what it is.

I don't think they'll re-issue their vintage line. They are trying to sell fashion clothes. When I ordered my N-3b last week, I checked all their current line and the only jacket it resembles the real thing is their standard N-3b. In their german store they have a "vintage" VF-59 and a "re-fuelling" model but both are "slim fit" :eusa_doh: aka "hipster fit".

I ended up with the standard Alpha because there isn't any other affordable option. Real McCoys N-3b is 1200USD in Japan (add shipping plus taxes) and Buzz Rickson's N-3B is "only" 800 bucks

 

[Atticus Finch]

I don't think it is erronous. It makes sense that MA-1 was developed at the same time than L-2 because it is basically the same jacket, a thicker L-2 with no epaulets and other minor details. Another different discussion would be when the first contract was awarded.

What the books say is they were given to some units. Maybe they were testing these early jackets as a prototype, I don't know. I have seen pictures where it appears as a test jacket, like this one;

Anyway, the point is that MA-1 didn't appear after the B-15 "mod". It was developed all by itself.

Yes...it could have been issued as a test jacket. I've never seen a test sample in real life but it would make sense that such a jacket was constructed and issued. Of course, jacket on the right above, is the '53 Lion Uniform that was the first MA-1 contract.

We'll just have to respectfully disagree about whether the MA-1 was developed independently of the B-15D (mod). If you hold a first edition MA-1 beside a B-15D (mod) you'll see that the jackets are almost distinguishable. One thing is for sure...if I were the chief designer of the MA-1, I would hate to try and convince my boss that I had done a good job of coming up with a brand new design.

AF

 

[Blackadder]

There is a cheaper Japanese brand called Houston that makes repro army clothings. Most of what they offer are made in China but there is a reprint series that is made in Japan. Here is an example
http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/auc-waiper/item/10007026/
Quality-wise, Houston cannot be compared to Buzz not to mention McCoy but their level of repro does beat Schott, Alpha and Spiewak who modified all these jackets nowadays to adapt to the market. Whilst Buzz and McCoy would use Alpaca/wool blend on their jackets, Houston only uses synthetic or pure wool.

 

[AustinTX]

While we're at it, does anyone know of the difference in fit, if any, between Alpha's standard B-15 jacket and the "Replica B-15 Flight Jacket" currently offered on their website? The "replica" is more expensive and heavier than their standard. Just wondering about the fit. I am once-burned, twice-shy with Alpha. Here's the link:

http://www.alphaindustries.com/Mens-Flight-Jackets/Alpha-Industries-Replica-B-15-Flight-Jacket.asp

 

[murena]

i am also collecting alpha jackets and have about 10 of them. i think the quality of the "made in usa" are a little bit higher than the modern. i have also often the problem with the correct size. i am 1,86m and about 88kg with a small waist and bigger chest...a medium size would fit me perfect about my chest and waist but i need the length from a large size
the best product from alpha was the REPLICA B-15, very good quality and perfect fit, however alpha will only make a little number of good jackets and after 7 months the "special" jackets are all out of order!
i will hope the bring out more jackets like the "replica" version

 

[AustinTX]

Was the Replica B-15 as heavy and warm as they advertise? Might be a bit much in this neck of the woods. Looks good, though.

 

[ronbo]

Howdee - I am pretty new here but I saw the post and really feel for you Bro! . I have been a flight jacket NUT for several years and I have owned several of the repro brands. As for the B15 series I have to say my B-15 C from Buzz Rickson is KING. 100% original in material specs. I have owned it for three winters now and it has held up beautifully. They are VERY expensive but so are most things made right these days (unfortunately). I also have an Eastman B-3 "Redskin" early model which is nice but it is no Real McCoy. I am still kicking myself for selling that one ...Cheers -Ronbo

 

[Edward]

Was the Replica B-15 as heavy and warm as they advertise? Might be a bit much in this neck of the woods. Looks good, though.

Not a physically heavy jacket in temrs of weight, but certainly very warm. My Irvin and B3 still have the edge in the heat department, but this comes close. I don't imagine there'd be much call for it down your way, though when it gets cold after dark...