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All You Need to Know About Hat Etiquette
- Thread starter Canadave
- Start date
John McGee
New in Town
- Messages
- 3
- Location
- Silicon Valley, USA
Lot of ladies = lots of hat manipulation for the gents
As a daily hat wearer, I try to follow proper hat etiquette.
I find tipping and removing my hat for ladies to be a charming way to show respect, but I am finding it difficult to obey this custom in modern society.
Nowadays, women are not hidden away, occupied with children, stoves, and washboards as they were in the heyday of hats. Women are everywhere, looking me in the eye and engaging me in conversation. This means an awful lot of hat tipping and hat removing.
I appreciate female participation in society and I respect women. My problem is that the frequency of interaction between men and women in modern society is far greater than was ever contemplated by hat etiquette.
What is the modern gentleman to do? Merely touch my brim? Perhaps substitute a nod of acknowledgment?
As a daily hat wearer, I try to follow proper hat etiquette.
I find tipping and removing my hat for ladies to be a charming way to show respect, but I am finding it difficult to obey this custom in modern society.
Nowadays, women are not hidden away, occupied with children, stoves, and washboards as they were in the heyday of hats. Women are everywhere, looking me in the eye and engaging me in conversation. This means an awful lot of hat tipping and hat removing.
I appreciate female participation in society and I respect women. My problem is that the frequency of interaction between men and women in modern society is far greater than was ever contemplated by hat etiquette.
What is the modern gentleman to do? Merely touch my brim? Perhaps substitute a nod of acknowledgment?
barrowjh
One Too Many
- Messages
- 1,398
- Location
- Maryville Tennessee
A nod and smile are about all that I do, and often, not even that much. I follow the 'coat' rule mostly - take my hat off when I take my coat off, or if it is too warm for a coat, in situations where I would have removed a coat. I might touch my brim if intending to flirt, or to recognize someone I know.
- Messages
- 11,579
- Location
- Covina, Califonia 91722
Touch the brim
I tend to smile and nod most times, but touch the brim for the elderly, or more mature and for groups of women and also say "Ladies!" in that slightly rising recognition question mode.
I tend to smile and nod most times, but touch the brim for the elderly, or more mature and for groups of women and also say "Ladies!" in that slightly rising recognition question mode.
Badluck Brody
Practically Family
- Messages
- 577
- Location
- Whitewater WI
After years...
After years in the military... I was always taught to uncover our "headgear" when entering a public, common or company building. Then when we exited the building, we drew our "headgear" by the brim and would always snap the headgear on our rt. thigh with a "pop" then don and fit our covers.
It's kinda cheesey... But when you have a few grunts doing it at the same time, it's kinda cool.... At least we thought it was!![huh]
After years in the military... I was always taught to uncover our "headgear" when entering a public, common or company building. Then when we exited the building, we drew our "headgear" by the brim and would always snap the headgear on our rt. thigh with a "pop" then don and fit our covers.
It's kinda cheesey... But when you have a few grunts doing it at the same time, it's kinda cool.... At least we thought it was!![huh]
KObalto
One of the Regulars
- Messages
- 221
- Location
- Baltimore, MD USA
I'm a trial lawyer and am in the courthouse every work day, and you are correct, the hat does not need to be removed until you enter the courtroom. We have a judge who had a series of complaints filed against him. One was that he had ordered a juror to remove his yarmulke. He responded that he did so because it was worn at a "rakish angle"! Just goes to show you that some people look good in anything.nulty said:
Judge's strict no-hat rule upsets cancer patient
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004122638_hatrule13.html
By John Trumbo
Tri-City Herald
Seattle Times
Sunday, January 13, 2008
Bev Williams of Richland wears a knitted beanie cap to cover her hairless head everywhere she goes, but not in Judge Holly Hollenbeck's courtroom.
The District Court judge told Williams, 43, to take her cap off or leave his court in the Benton County Justice Center on Friday morning.
"I was embarrassed. It made me cry," said Williams, who recently underwent six months of chemotherapy for cancer.
Williams said she wouldn't remove the cap as Hollenbeck instructed and left the courtroom, but she believes he could have made an exception when he learned why she wears a cap in public.
Hollenbeck said Williams was one of several people in his packed courtroom on Friday who were told to remove their hats or caps. All complied but Williams, he said.
Hollenbeck said each judge is different in how the no-hat rule is enforced.
"I ask everybody to remove hats," he said, noting the only reason he has allowed one — once — was for a religious reason.
Hollenbeck said, "I am very understanding with people who battle with cancer. My own mother died from cancer. I've had hundreds of cancer victims come through my court, and I've never had one not remove their hat, ever."
He added, "Refusal to remove shows contempt for the court and for the judge."
But Williams didn't see it that way. "It was rude and uncalled for," she said.
Williams said she was in court as moral support for her daughter, who was facing a misdemeanor charge.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004122638_hatrule13.html
By John Trumbo
Tri-City Herald
Seattle Times
Sunday, January 13, 2008
Bev Williams of Richland wears a knitted beanie cap to cover her hairless head everywhere she goes, but not in Judge Holly Hollenbeck's courtroom.
The District Court judge told Williams, 43, to take her cap off or leave his court in the Benton County Justice Center on Friday morning.
"I was embarrassed. It made me cry," said Williams, who recently underwent six months of chemotherapy for cancer.
Williams said she wouldn't remove the cap as Hollenbeck instructed and left the courtroom, but she believes he could have made an exception when he learned why she wears a cap in public.
Hollenbeck said Williams was one of several people in his packed courtroom on Friday who were told to remove their hats or caps. All complied but Williams, he said.
Hollenbeck said each judge is different in how the no-hat rule is enforced.
"I ask everybody to remove hats," he said, noting the only reason he has allowed one — once — was for a religious reason.
Hollenbeck said, "I am very understanding with people who battle with cancer. My own mother died from cancer. I've had hundreds of cancer victims come through my court, and I've never had one not remove their hat, ever."
He added, "Refusal to remove shows contempt for the court and for the judge."
But Williams didn't see it that way. "It was rude and uncalled for," she said.
Williams said she was in court as moral support for her daughter, who was facing a misdemeanor charge.
NonEntity
Suspended
- Messages
- 281
- Location
- Southeastern U.S.
What Do You Think?
My mother is not Miss Manners, but she comes close, and most of what I've learned about manners and etiquette came from her. When it comes to hats, women are entirely exempt from any removal requirement, while, for men, the basis for removing a hat is almost always as a sign of respect. So this post is about men.
Much about when and where he should remove his hat has already been covered, but I'd like to re-focus on the original milieu: restaurants.
No, a man is not expected to remove his hat while sitting at the counter in a diner-type eatery. To put the hat on a stool beside you is to take up another seat, broadcasting, in effect, that his hat takes priority over a customer sitting there. I matters not that there are plenty of other stools available. A customer may want to sit on that particular stool. He might be a regular who always sits there. She might be with Publisher’s Clearinghouse and have a million-dollar check for you. Again, respect is the guiding principle.
The occasional diner will have a coat and hat rack, but its presence does not equate to a hats-off requirement. It's for your convenience should you choose to utilize it. If, for comfort or some other entirely personal reason, a man wants to remove his hat while at the counter, he may certainly do so by placing it on the counter--so long as it's not infringing on counter space in front of another stool, as that signals the same thing as putting it on the stool. However, he assumes the risk of food and drink spilling on the hat in his own counter space, a risk I, for one, do not take.
On the topic of coat and hat racks, I am personally very reluctant to leave anything on them, and then only when I can keep my things in sight, for concern that someone my get sticky fingers. I've a story about that I'll have to post separately sometime.
I have not been able to find from an “authority” the proper etiquette for hats in fast-food establishments--and what constitutes such a place has become increasingly subjective--but I characterize a fast-food restaurant as any in which the customer takes his food either out or to the table himself--one without wait service. In my judgement, there is no social prerogative for a man to remove his hat in such a place.
Now, restaurants with waiters/waitresses. Of course, a man removes his hat in such a restaurant, but when?
Case study:
My mother recently took me and my two school-age children to a Houston's, a nice, upper-middle chain restaurant, for my and my daughter's birthday. It was a cold and rainy evening, and its being a Saturday night and we having no reservations, we had to wait almost an hour for a table. Bustling with a steady stream of customers entering and exiting through the two sets of double doors in the small lobby/waiting area, it was cold and breezy there, so the four of us kept our coats on, and I left my beret on, as well. Even had the inclement weather not been a factor, I believe it’s entirely proper to leave on hats and outer garments in this part of a restaurant if the customer so chooses, unless the establishment offers a coat/hat/umbrella check, which Houston’s does not.
When I first approached the hostess, a gal in her late teens, maybe early 20s, to get on the waiting list, I noticed her eyes lingered on my beret, an authentic Basque one, in camel, that I got from the extraordinarily helpful folks at Stark & Legum, in Norfolk, VA. It’s not unusual for people to stare at me when I wear any of my berets, for you rarely see men here in the Southeastern U.S. donning such headgear, but her body language and the expression on her face—if they were related to the beret at all—suggested she was not happy. She gave the leather Ghurka bag on my shoulder a disapproving glare, as well. A diabetic, I keep my glucose meter, other testing supplies, insulin, emergency food, etc. in that bag, and it goes everywhere I do.
Anyway, when a table finally became available, she called my name and quickly ushered us back to it, a square four-top. Having helped my mom remove her coat, I was still standing assisting with her chair when the hostess said, “We ask that men remove their hats while dining with us.”
Now, it was not only THAT she said this, but also the WAY she said it that I regarded as offensive. I concede that my hunger and the long, cold wait exacerbated my negative reaction, so I was more irritated by the comment than I usually would have been, yet I still feel her remark was entirely uncalled-for and crossed into the downright rude.
I was GOING to take off my trench coat and beret before I sat down, little Miss Tell-Me-The-Rules, but I was first attending to my elderly mother’s coat and seating her, as any gentleman would, while my kids took off their jackets and hung them on the back of their chairs. Yes, I could have taken off my coat and hat first, but I was taught “ladies first,” so that’s what I did.
Having been to that same restaurant several times before and therefore knowing the scene, I was further annoyed by the fact that I’d INTENTIONALLY worn the beret. I could fold it up into the inside pocket of my coat and not have to worry with where to put a fedora, which I would have much preferred to wear to keep the rain off my face instead of the encumbrance of a bumbershoot. Since there were four of us, I anticipated there would be no spare seat in which to lay a fedora, which turned out to be the case.
I suppose I could have removed the beret as soon as the hostess escorted us back to the table. But, practically speaking, I was using one hand to hold the umbrella and the other to maneuver my shoulder bag to ensure it did not strike the heads of seated customers in the dark and crowded dining area the hostess whisked us through.
When she informed me of the hat policy, I simply said, “But, of course,” tucked the beret in my coat pocket, took off the trench coat, slipping my scarf into the sleeve, and hung it on the back of the chair, noticing that it dragged on the carpet.
I bit my tongue on what I really wanted to say:
“Given your strict policy but lack of a garment check or even hooks, where shall I put my hat, not to mention my coat, scarf, and umbrella?”
“I beg your pardon, but would you be so kind as to permit me to seat my mother before I attend to my own garments?”
“Oh, thank you so much for reminding me of your customer dress code. It’s your employee dress code that I’m curious about. May I please see the manager (glancing down at deep cleavage visible in the plunging V of the sweater she had on)?”
Even had I sat down and left the beret on, if the policy had to be enforced, the courteous way to communicate it would have been for the hostess to politely whisper it in my ear, rather than embarrass me by announcing it in front of my party and all the other customers nearby. Responding to a breech of manners by transgressing social etiquette is never appropriate.
In the final analysis, I don’t think this incident had much to do with Houston’s hat policy; rather, I believe the hostess just did not like me from the get-go. I was well and conservatively dressed that evening, wearing navy blazer, a new tie, gabardine trousers, and tassel loafers, but the beret and the bag set me apart. Maybe she thought those were bohemian and disliked anything out of the ordinary. Perhaps she associated those items with being gay (it would not be the first time)—not there’s anything wrong with that, though I’m not—and has a problem with homosexuality. Then again, she might have just been stressed out and vented on me.
I know this sounds like I’m making a mountain out of a mole hill, but when you take a specific situation like this one at Houston’s and analyze it in detail for hat mannerliness, it can be instructive.
So, do you think I did the right thing? Why or why not? (I’ll tell you later what my mother thought.)
Expanding to the general, WHEN is the proper time to remove one’s hat in a wait-and-be-seated restaurant without a hat check? Is there an EXACT moment to take the hat off, such as when crossing the threshold into a home, or is there some leeway?
My mother is not Miss Manners, but she comes close, and most of what I've learned about manners and etiquette came from her. When it comes to hats, women are entirely exempt from any removal requirement, while, for men, the basis for removing a hat is almost always as a sign of respect. So this post is about men.
Much about when and where he should remove his hat has already been covered, but I'd like to re-focus on the original milieu: restaurants.
No, a man is not expected to remove his hat while sitting at the counter in a diner-type eatery. To put the hat on a stool beside you is to take up another seat, broadcasting, in effect, that his hat takes priority over a customer sitting there. I matters not that there are plenty of other stools available. A customer may want to sit on that particular stool. He might be a regular who always sits there. She might be with Publisher’s Clearinghouse and have a million-dollar check for you. Again, respect is the guiding principle.
The occasional diner will have a coat and hat rack, but its presence does not equate to a hats-off requirement. It's for your convenience should you choose to utilize it. If, for comfort or some other entirely personal reason, a man wants to remove his hat while at the counter, he may certainly do so by placing it on the counter--so long as it's not infringing on counter space in front of another stool, as that signals the same thing as putting it on the stool. However, he assumes the risk of food and drink spilling on the hat in his own counter space, a risk I, for one, do not take.
On the topic of coat and hat racks, I am personally very reluctant to leave anything on them, and then only when I can keep my things in sight, for concern that someone my get sticky fingers. I've a story about that I'll have to post separately sometime.
I have not been able to find from an “authority” the proper etiquette for hats in fast-food establishments--and what constitutes such a place has become increasingly subjective--but I characterize a fast-food restaurant as any in which the customer takes his food either out or to the table himself--one without wait service. In my judgement, there is no social prerogative for a man to remove his hat in such a place.
Now, restaurants with waiters/waitresses. Of course, a man removes his hat in such a restaurant, but when?
Case study:
My mother recently took me and my two school-age children to a Houston's, a nice, upper-middle chain restaurant, for my and my daughter's birthday. It was a cold and rainy evening, and its being a Saturday night and we having no reservations, we had to wait almost an hour for a table. Bustling with a steady stream of customers entering and exiting through the two sets of double doors in the small lobby/waiting area, it was cold and breezy there, so the four of us kept our coats on, and I left my beret on, as well. Even had the inclement weather not been a factor, I believe it’s entirely proper to leave on hats and outer garments in this part of a restaurant if the customer so chooses, unless the establishment offers a coat/hat/umbrella check, which Houston’s does not.
When I first approached the hostess, a gal in her late teens, maybe early 20s, to get on the waiting list, I noticed her eyes lingered on my beret, an authentic Basque one, in camel, that I got from the extraordinarily helpful folks at Stark & Legum, in Norfolk, VA. It’s not unusual for people to stare at me when I wear any of my berets, for you rarely see men here in the Southeastern U.S. donning such headgear, but her body language and the expression on her face—if they were related to the beret at all—suggested she was not happy. She gave the leather Ghurka bag on my shoulder a disapproving glare, as well. A diabetic, I keep my glucose meter, other testing supplies, insulin, emergency food, etc. in that bag, and it goes everywhere I do.
Anyway, when a table finally became available, she called my name and quickly ushered us back to it, a square four-top. Having helped my mom remove her coat, I was still standing assisting with her chair when the hostess said, “We ask that men remove their hats while dining with us.”
Now, it was not only THAT she said this, but also the WAY she said it that I regarded as offensive. I concede that my hunger and the long, cold wait exacerbated my negative reaction, so I was more irritated by the comment than I usually would have been, yet I still feel her remark was entirely uncalled-for and crossed into the downright rude.
I was GOING to take off my trench coat and beret before I sat down, little Miss Tell-Me-The-Rules, but I was first attending to my elderly mother’s coat and seating her, as any gentleman would, while my kids took off their jackets and hung them on the back of their chairs. Yes, I could have taken off my coat and hat first, but I was taught “ladies first,” so that’s what I did.
Having been to that same restaurant several times before and therefore knowing the scene, I was further annoyed by the fact that I’d INTENTIONALLY worn the beret. I could fold it up into the inside pocket of my coat and not have to worry with where to put a fedora, which I would have much preferred to wear to keep the rain off my face instead of the encumbrance of a bumbershoot. Since there were four of us, I anticipated there would be no spare seat in which to lay a fedora, which turned out to be the case.
I suppose I could have removed the beret as soon as the hostess escorted us back to the table. But, practically speaking, I was using one hand to hold the umbrella and the other to maneuver my shoulder bag to ensure it did not strike the heads of seated customers in the dark and crowded dining area the hostess whisked us through.
When she informed me of the hat policy, I simply said, “But, of course,” tucked the beret in my coat pocket, took off the trench coat, slipping my scarf into the sleeve, and hung it on the back of the chair, noticing that it dragged on the carpet.
I bit my tongue on what I really wanted to say:
“Given your strict policy but lack of a garment check or even hooks, where shall I put my hat, not to mention my coat, scarf, and umbrella?”
“I beg your pardon, but would you be so kind as to permit me to seat my mother before I attend to my own garments?”
“Oh, thank you so much for reminding me of your customer dress code. It’s your employee dress code that I’m curious about. May I please see the manager (glancing down at deep cleavage visible in the plunging V of the sweater she had on)?”
Even had I sat down and left the beret on, if the policy had to be enforced, the courteous way to communicate it would have been for the hostess to politely whisper it in my ear, rather than embarrass me by announcing it in front of my party and all the other customers nearby. Responding to a breech of manners by transgressing social etiquette is never appropriate.
In the final analysis, I don’t think this incident had much to do with Houston’s hat policy; rather, I believe the hostess just did not like me from the get-go. I was well and conservatively dressed that evening, wearing navy blazer, a new tie, gabardine trousers, and tassel loafers, but the beret and the bag set me apart. Maybe she thought those were bohemian and disliked anything out of the ordinary. Perhaps she associated those items with being gay (it would not be the first time)—not there’s anything wrong with that, though I’m not—and has a problem with homosexuality. Then again, she might have just been stressed out and vented on me.
I know this sounds like I’m making a mountain out of a mole hill, but when you take a specific situation like this one at Houston’s and analyze it in detail for hat mannerliness, it can be instructive.
So, do you think I did the right thing? Why or why not? (I’ll tell you later what my mother thought.)
Expanding to the general, WHEN is the proper time to remove one’s hat in a wait-and-be-seated restaurant without a hat check? Is there an EXACT moment to take the hat off, such as when crossing the threshold into a home, or is there some leeway?
- Messages
- 14,393
- Location
- Small Town Ohio, USA
Excellent question.
First, I think you handled that situation with restraint and dignity. The easy thing is to lash out. The much harder thing is to suffer the fool without fuss. The broader question is how to politely handle a situation in which another person is making (incorrect or badly-timed) points of etiquette in an offensive manner? There's nothing to be gained in a battle of breeding. I think "But of course," and getting beyond it quickly was model behavior. You could certainly have also taken it up after the meal (which was no doubt semi-spoiled by the disagreeable beginning) with Miss Smarty Bosoms and/or the management.
I would say that the best time to remove one's hat, coat, etc., upon entering a restaurant is that moment when one can do so with the least fuss, inconvenience to others, or attracting of attention. I usually pull off my hat as I come through the door, and the rest when seated.
I also think that your choosing to leave them on due to cold air in the waiting area was perfectly fine.
First, I think you handled that situation with restraint and dignity. The easy thing is to lash out. The much harder thing is to suffer the fool without fuss. The broader question is how to politely handle a situation in which another person is making (incorrect or badly-timed) points of etiquette in an offensive manner? There's nothing to be gained in a battle of breeding. I think "But of course," and getting beyond it quickly was model behavior. You could certainly have also taken it up after the meal (which was no doubt semi-spoiled by the disagreeable beginning) with Miss Smarty Bosoms and/or the management.
I would say that the best time to remove one's hat, coat, etc., upon entering a restaurant is that moment when one can do so with the least fuss, inconvenience to others, or attracting of attention. I usually pull off my hat as I come through the door, and the rest when seated.
I also think that your choosing to leave them on due to cold air in the waiting area was perfectly fine.
Mike in Seattle
My Mail is Forwarded Here
- Messages
- 3,027
- Location
- Renton (Seattle), WA
I think your actions (leaving the hat & coat on while getting your mother settled), is fine. It sounds as if you were still helping her when the bosomy buffoon waded in with her snippy comment. As Scott pointed out, there are times when you should hold your tongue and suffer the fool, but I think this time, she was clearly over the line and further, thought she could get away with it.NonEntity said:
I think I would've gone with pointing out, as you stated, "As you could plainly see, I was helping my elderly mother get her coat off and settled, as any gentleman would, before removing my own hat and coat. Where are your coat and hat racks?" When your server arrived, I would then ask them, in a quiet voice, to please send the manager over, assuring the server it was nothing he or she did, it was a completely different matter, and to not send the hostess who seated you. You want whoever as in charge that night.
And you could still send them a letter, perhaps cc:'ed to the local paper's restaurant editor. Give a call, find out who the head honcho is so it's properly addressed to him. Snotty little people like that who are there to serve you really fry me.
And...dying to hear what your mother thought was...
duggap
Banned
- Messages
- 938
- Location
- Chattanooga, TN
I don't generally like to take my hat off and leave it in the car but I have done so on some occassions. I attended a preview of a barbeque restaurant with free food and there was a large crowd. The only thing that went thru my mind was someone will stain my hat, so I left it in the front seat until I returned. I have done that on excessively rainy days also. I know Art says wear them in the rain, but for the price I can take it off for a few minutes.
NonEntity
Suspended
- Messages
- 281
- Location
- Southeastern U.S.
Yes, Mike In Seattle, I would have ordinarily assertively handled the situation as you suggest, but since I was with, and the guest of, my mother--who regards even minor conflict as ugly and distasteful--I took the road of least resistance. I particularly like your idea of CCing the local newspaper restaurant columnist on a letter to management. That would REALLY get Houston's attention, and maybe a free meal or two, eh?
I'd like to get a few more responses here before I reveal what my mom thought.
BegintheBeguine
My Mail is Forwarded Here
- Messages
- 3,498
I know what you mean about being a guest of someone who finds conflict distasteful. The letter seems to be the best solution since you couldn't do anything about it at the time, in deference to your mother's feelings.
For whatever it's worth, when I was reading your tale of woe it reminded me of how some little missys treat people they think are foreigners. Terrible. Please do let us know the rest of the story.
For whatever it's worth, when I was reading your tale of woe it reminded me of how some little missys treat people they think are foreigners. Terrible. Please do let us know the rest of the story.
RetroBabydoll
A-List Customer
- Messages
- 392
- Location
- LA
sorry if this has been already asked.........
I was wondering how hat etiquette is for the ladies.
Any thoughts?
I was wondering how hat etiquette is for the ladies.
Any thoughts?
Stan
A-List Customer
- Messages
- 336
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
Hi,
Ladies just leave their hats on all the time, even during the playing of the national anthem. The thinking is that many ladies hats are complicated to don and so doffing would present a problem when it came time to don them again.
This doesn't apply to women wearing ballcaps, though, unless they have a medical reason to keep them on (i.e. chemo baldness). Ballcaps are considered male hats (or 'unisex', but that's just semantics) and so follow the rules for men.
Not that I see many ballcap wearers of any sex following the rules. I just saw several men and women wear their ballcaps thru the playing of the anthem just last Saturday. Sigh.
Later!
Stan
Ladies just leave their hats on all the time, even during the playing of the national anthem. The thinking is that many ladies hats are complicated to don and so doffing would present a problem when it came time to don them again.
This doesn't apply to women wearing ballcaps, though, unless they have a medical reason to keep them on (i.e. chemo baldness). Ballcaps are considered male hats (or 'unisex', but that's just semantics) and so follow the rules for men.
Not that I see many ballcap wearers of any sex following the rules. I just saw several men and women wear their ballcaps thru the playing of the anthem just last Saturday. Sigh.
Later!
Stan
- Messages
- 14,393
- Location
- Small Town Ohio, USA
Right. A lady is never required to remove her hat.
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KeyGrip
A-List Customer
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- 465
- Location
- Santa Cruz, CA
Okay, how about in a university setting? I take my hat off in elevators out of habit, but I'm not sure how to treat a building full of classrooms or a classroom itself. Any ideas?
