1940s suits confusion CC41

[Tecnikal]

Hi everyone,

Sometimes too much research can be a bad thing and I'm looking to kit myself out in 1940s civilian clothes for 40s weekends/re-enactments etc, but have got myself confused and wonder if you can help. I am basically trying to wear the correct suit that British men wore DURING the war years.

I hear that from 1941 to cut costs, the CC41 label came out which I believe were single breasted and with no turnups, yet when seaching on ebay there are quite a few suits that are double breasted and look gangster style which claim to have the CC41 label in them.

To add to the confusion some suits have in their description "CC41 double breasted demob suit" and I though the demob suits were for when the war finished in 1945.

After 1945 did CC41 become double breasted?

I am trying to be in the time 1940-1944 so am not looking for a post war look, so what should I be looking for? I don't mind if it doesn't have the CC41 label but am trying to be as authentic as I can. If Ebay isn't the right place to look, does anyone know a good reasonably priced supplier.

Can anyone help to de-confuse me about the correct suit to wear? Many thanks.

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

Hi Tecnikal.

Welcome to the Fedora Lounge. If you expected a shortcut to dating wartime suits you may be disappointed. Ebay vendors are not always reliable. Most of them can't tell if it is a "demob" suit. They just want to sell their stuff. "demob" and "CC41" is certainly not the same thing.

So if you want to learn the difference between a early and a late 40s suit you have to take the long route and see for yourself. Look at pictures. Compare the features. And then you have to deal will all the exeptions from the "rules". CC41 suits with turnups for example.
Here is a good start for you. Use google and search for "fedora lounge cc41" or "fedora lounge demob"and you might find even more. Come to think of it we could use a "all things british" sticky.

CC41 and Double Eleven Utility Labels
CC41 - decoding the codes
Show us your British suits
British Workwear

 

[Tecnikal]

Hi FFF, thank you, excuse the war pun, but it looks like it's a minefield out there trying to dress correctly. I guess I was hoping for a simple answer. Don't get me wrong, I have been doing my homework, in fact have spent hours on it and just when I think I've worked out that I should be wearing single breasted suits with no turn ups according to authentic photos, I then come accross another site which shows original photo's of people wearing double breasted with turnups and claiming the photo's were taken of British Men in 1943 or whatever.

So everytime I go to a site it contradicts something I have already seen, so in the end I thought I'd ask on here to see if anyone actually knows. I did look on the CC41 forum briefly, but it is mainly about dresses and the label itself, but I will have another look through this evening.

Perhaps both suits were around in which case I want to wear what MOST people were wearing at the time. I'm sure there were certain suits you could get from America during the war but I want to blend in with the majority. Thanks for your help though, much appreciated.

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

Just for the DB question: There were a lot of DB suits with CC41 label. I bought and sold a DB jacket myself.

Another one : CC41 with 2 pairs of trousers


I don't know about "demob" since I never handled one. But you want to go for early 40s anyway, right?
Here is a link to a original demob suit that sold a whiole ago.


You may have already noticed: On ebay UK there is a seller who sells a lot of "1940s Lindy Hop gangster swing demob style suits" Style means: It's just a double breasted 80s to early 90s suit.

 

[Tecnikal]

If a CC41 suit was double breasted would that indicate that it was post war as CC41 I believe went on to the end of clothes rationing in 1949 or not necessarily? You can see the reason for confusion as I was lead to believe that the whole point of CC41 was that they used less material and that is why they were single breasted, perhaps CC41 went on for longer than I thought.

It's always a problem when you go to these re-enactment things because if you get one single thing wrong, you can guarantee there is always some know it all who will pull you up on it and say something like "You can't be in 1943 because that particular plastic used on that button wasn't made till 1946 or your lapels are a millimietre out" etc

Great suit by the way Flat Foot.

 

[Tecnikal]

"demob" and "CC41" is certainly not the same thing.

Looking at your other link. It says CC41 demob suit for sale. aaaghhhh. I don't get it. lol.

 

[Two Types]

Florian has posted good links that, I think, will answer many of your questions. The British suits thread is a treasure trove of information.

The main points to remember are that the CC41 label was in operation for as long as clothing rationing was in place, thus many items of CC41 clothing are actually post war. Also, the issue of turn-ups on suits is a bit of a red-herring since, if a man wanted a suit with turn-ups he could simply order clothing with longer legs than his own, then add turn-ups.

For me, the main thing to remember is that, with clothing in short supply, for most people WW2 civilian clothing was simply 1930s clothing. Thus a well-worn 1930s suit, getting a bit shiny around the seat etc, is just as authentic as a perfect condition suit with a CC41 label. It also means that when suit trousers wore out many men would buy new trousers and weqar them with the waistcoat and jacket of their old suit. So if it is authenticity you are striving for, mismatched trousers and jackets is one look you should consider.This isn't ideal if you wish to look stylish, but it's a genuine look.

So if it's 'costume' rather than your day wear, get yourself a knackered 1930s jacket and combine with a pair of baggy grey flannels (which might be more difficult to find).

If you want to be certain of the authenticity of a tie, check out the 'Tootal, history etc' thread. That give the dates for which labels are from the 1930s and 1940s.

Good luck with the search.

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

Looking at your other link. It says CC41 demob suit for sale. aaaghhhh. I don't get it. lol.

Yes, but it doesn't have to be a "demob" suit just because it is CC41.

Demob suits were for soldiers of course and the cc41 label applied to all rationed clothes. No matter if the wearer was fighting or not, male or female, old or young...
Many ebay vendors claim every CC41 as being a "demob" suit but few have proof like this label.

All history teachers are human but not all humans are history teachers. [huh]

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Re: getting clothes that is definitely wartime: buy a dated garment; that's the only way to be sure. I would argue, though, that most men would be wearing the stuff they had in the immediate pre-war years, so a late 30s suit is what you should seek.

Don't mistake CC41 and so-called utility clothing, either. They are not synonymous.

There were no restrictions on use of fabric, provision of waistcoats, turnups, double breasted jackets, pocket flaps etc. etc. The CC41 labels and the codes attached to them were used to set the price of the cloth, the price of the garment, and the level of profit that a tailor/company could achieve on a given garment made of a given cloth. It was, essentially, an anti-profiteering scheme.

restrictions on fabric and fixed pricing/profit began on January 1st 1940, with the implementation of the Prices of Goods Act. From Tailor and Cutter v74 #3818, Dec 22nd, 1939:

"PRICE REGULATIONS FROM JANUARY 1 - first order includes clothing."

"… expensive goods have not been included. This is because the Act aims primarily to protect people of modest means."

"… from this [stated prices] it will be seen that only those catering for the cheaper trade are affected by the first order"

I am currently working through Tailor and Cutter and Men's Wear from the war years to determine just how affected the tailoring trade was by the Acts and the various orders that followed them. I have sadly only got up to January 1940 so far.

bk

 

[Qirrel]

In a T&C article (can't remember what date, but from the 40s/50s) I remember reading that all the tailors on Savile Row had considerable stock of pre-war fabric all through the war and the years after.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Yes, and immediately upon outbreak of war, the government made them take out insurance against war damage on their stock. This also applied to fabric merchants and warehouses. Some merchants were reported as paying £1000 per quarter, which inevitably drove prices up instantly. Also, a pay hike of 20% on all cutlery workers drove the price of shears through the roof in late 1939.

 

[Tecnikal]

guys, can I just say thank you for the wealth of information, you all certainly know your stuff. It has eliminated some of the confusion, So if I've got this right, knowing that CC41 wasn't the amount of material but many other cost factors I can comfortably get a CC41 double breasted suit without being picked up on it. I can avoid demob suits as they were post war even though they may have CC41 on it, but to be sure it is probably more authentic to get a 1930s suit. Have I got that right?

Although not an exact science I think the rules above will help me. So therefore I am about to start a new thread called 1930's suits confusion...did they wear double breasted...etc ...lol. only kidding. I think what I need to do is spend a good evening reading through the forums.

Thank you though.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Yes, I don't think you'll run into any trouble. Given the turnout of the majority on 40s weekends, having an original suit will be something of a novelty anyways.

I wouldn't say that during the war every civilian would be getting about in a late 30s suit - the tailoring trade continued to function - only that it would not be out of place. (And no-one will be able to tell the difference.)

But yes, they do tend to get a bit obsessive over perceived (often mistaken perceptions) problems with outfits. You will hear bandied about all the old crap about turnups, waistcoats, double breasted, etc. etc. none of which hold true. Look at the British Pathe archives for movies of the period, and see the variety of clothes being worn is huge.

 

[Two Types]

Another factor will be the age group you fall into. There was a massive gulf between the clothes worn by younger men and those worn by the middle aged and older men. A good way of seeing those differences is to look at photographs of the Home Guard in the period before uniforms were fully issued. Compare the teenagers to the rest of them. In those photos you get a good sense of the comparisons.

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

Quite frankly I have the impression that reenactors can be quite a pain...
If you really find a good late 30s early 40s suit (it's not easy) you should appreciate it for being a good suit and not a prop (to impress the reenactment crowd.
And please don't cut off the cuffs.

 

[Two Types]

Tecnikal: What size do you wear? If you let us know there might be someone on the 'Lounge' with something to sell to you. It might save you a lot of searching.